TurboCad - The Misunderstood Software

[John Hart]

Howdy,

Now that I have my coffee, I wanted to offer some insight on a subject that I've been pretty close to for the last 15 years. CAD software. It's a great tool for those of you who either want to get away from paper drawings or just want a really cool calculator. I've been an engineer at several companies that used different CAD packages, so I've been forced to learn a number of them....And my bottom line is: They all have good functionality and they all require that the user become intimately familiar with all the menus in order to be proficient and have an enjoyable experience. Price is a very big concern with CAD because, most of them do what everyone wants...so why pay $2000 for a package that will perform YOUR NEEDS when one for $100 will do the same thing.

TurboCAD is highly misunderstood and we all can take advantage of that. When TurboCAD was first release, it sold for $9.99 and a lot of times you could get it for free. It was clunky and had lots of bugs. This set the tone and TurboCAD has never been able to shake it. Nowadays, they have a world class package that performs 2D drawing easily, 3D solide modeling, and animation.

Personally, I have no need for 3D because my designs are in my head and I have a stigma that 3D is for salesmen...2D is for engineers and builders.

But anyway, because TurboCAD is misunderstood, you can get their best versions on Ebay for under $20...fully functional. I highly recommend this route. Especially for those of you who want to give CAD a try and you're not married to any particular package like Anvil or AutoCAD or any of the other over-priced apps.

As a calculator, CAD in invaluable. Many times, you know what you want to build but don't know the angles...CAD lets you put your mind's eye on the screen and the software calculates the angles...you just set your miter saw. Getting a visual idea without having to erase and redraw on paper is another great advantage. Calculating total wood needs for a project is also valuable. So even if you aren't an engineer, if you find yourself with sketches all over the place and struggle with calculations...CAD's the way to go...And TurboCAD is a first class package that can be gotten cheaply.

My two cents...Whew!

[Mark Singer]

John,
I have been using it for years now and it really is great. I design homes in plan and section and TurboCad is a great way to quickly "think out" a design and consider alternatives....With that said I think Sketch up looks to be a really great progam...I don't have it yet...Just based on the drawings of Jim Becker, Dave Richards, and Todd Burch...all very helpful guys with CAD too!

[Tony Falotico]

John, ..........With that said I think Sketch up looks to be a really great program...I don't have it yet...

As a civil engineer I was weaned on AutoCad back in the MS DOS days and think it is wonderful. It thinks in terms of coordinate geometry, which is how I think and we got along great. I currently have Autosketch, authored by the same company and find it equivalent to AutoCad for home use, much less $$'s. At work (a state agency) they use Microstation. I've never figured out how microstation thinks, and find it bulky and cumbersome. Many of the folks who use it at work, have never used anything but, and think it is great.

Anyway, my main reason for posting is based on Mark's comments about Sketch-Up. I'm sure it is a superior product based on some of the stuff I've seen here, but have a hard time justifying the cost. There is another product out there, called SoftCad 3D. Significantly less expensive than sketch-up. I posted about a while back and got zero response. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...hlight=softcad
I tried the 30 days free trial and found it to be pretty powerful, but have nothing to compare it with. Would be interested for some sketch-up users to look at and offer some comparisons. I plan on downloading the sketch-up free trial as soon as I have a project to try it on.

[Robert Cox]

My first CAD program was AutoCad in DOS. I went through release 14 with that. Not everyday use but enouogh to keep my hand in.

Now I am piggybacked onto our systems at work using Microstation and I too, am lost mostly.

I just don't use it enough to be proficient and I miss my Autocad.

I did try Turbocad but that was 10 years ago or so. So maybe it is time for another look.

[Jeff Pilcher]

I agree that almost any CAD program available today can create useful drawings. Anyone that has been considering getting a CAD program should give it a try, CAD is not hard to learn.

I've been around CAD for more than 20 years (started using AutoCAD in 1984). Started as a drafter and now I make my living as a self employed CAD consultant / programmer.

If anyone is interested ... I have learned / used many CAD programs over the years (TurboCAD, CADKey, Intergraph, AutoCAD, Microstation, Inventor, Pro/Engineer). Now days I do mostly AutoCAD and Inventor consulting. The work I do involves developing custom software to link CAD drawings to ERP/MRP systems, and also to automatically create detailed drawings from numeric data.

[Todd Burch]

John, thanks for offering your thoughts on TurboCad. I bought one of the first releases way back, for $49 I think. Then, I upgraded to their $99 2D verison, and bought all the symbols too for another $150.

I was startng to get comfortable using it. I learned I did not have to draw objects to the exact size needed, but just get close and then type in values to be exact. Then, I tried it for a simple straight line, and got a blue screen every time. I quit using it at that point.

I still have it, and go into it every now and then, but I don't use it enough to be proficient with it.

Jeff ("Pilch"), I'm doing a similar thing with Sketchup (SU) as you are doing with CAD - I'm writing programs to extend it and provide more functionality. SU uses Ruby, an object oriented language that's pretty nice to use. I suspect you are using Lisp. Soon, I'm going to attempt to hook it up to a Bluetooth connected Leica Laser Distance Meter (Disto Plus) and automatically draw a floor plan in SU from it's readings.

Have you written any routines to triangulate meshes for contour drawings? Several routines that I have written are to clean up sloppy CAD work once imported into SU.

Todd

[John Hart]

I know the bug that you experienced Todd...In fact I did the same as you, I quit using it for a spell, then I heard that you could download the fix to it and gave it a try...The blue screen of death was corrected. Version 8 Professional is what I have now. I paid $20 for it and so far, it's bug-free.

Don't get me wrong though, I am not saying that TurboCad is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I have no stake in their success. It has just been my experience that people are shy of trying Cad for the first time because of the complexities, and price will often drive them away from getting their feet wet. TurboCad offers all the functionality that most folks need and you can get it cheap.

[Jeff Pilcher]

Jeff ("Pilch"), I'm doing a similar thing with Sketchup (SU) as you are doing with CAD - I'm writing programs to extend it and provide more functionality. SU uses Ruby, an object oriented language that's pretty nice to use. I suspect you are using Lisp. Soon, I'm going to attempt to hook it up to a Bluetooth connected Leica Laser Distance Meter (Disto Plus) and automatically draw a floor plan in SU from it's readings.

Have you written any routines to triangulate meshes for contour drawings? Several routines that I have written are to clean up sloppy CAD work once imported into SU.

Todd,
I have not done anything involving contours or surfacing (YET). I do indeed develop in LISP (AutoLISP), in fact, AutoLISP was the first programming language I learned. Most of my work is in Visual Basic (VB and VBA) these days.

SketchUp seems to be very popluar among SMC members. I'll have to give it a look.

[Bill Arnold]

... CAD's the way to go...And TurboCAD is a first class package that can be gotten cheaply. ...

John,

I couldn't agree more! I'd much rather sketch something out on my computer than to try to draw it on paper. I have trouble drawing a straight line with a ruler!

I've dabbled with AutoCAD several times over the past 15 years and was given a v2002 license last year. I bought a copy of DesignCAD 3D v14 and have spent a little time on it. My biggest problem with learning these programs is changing my thought processes from a drawing package (Visio) I learned a few years ago when working for a manufacturer.

To shorten this post, I'll give one example of a difference. If I want to draw a panel that measures 24" x 36", I simply drag the rectangle icon onto the drawing page. Then I right click, type in the dimensions and it's done. Unless I'm missing something, in either of the other CAD packages, drawing an object requires multiple commands using coordinates, etc. I understand the coordinate system, so that's not an issue; it's just the amount of time it seems to take to accomplish what I can do in seconds in Visio.

Am I off track somewhere? If so, please steer me in a different direction.

Regards,

[Jeff Pilcher]

If I want to draw a panel that measures 24" x 36", I simply drag the rectangle icon onto the drawing page. Then I right click, type in the dimensions and it's done.

Bill,
What you refer to is called Dimension Driven. Many CAD software programs operate in this way, but some of the older programs do not. Some are just now catching on to this more user friendly method. AutoCAD's newest version (2006, just announced in the last week) includes a modified version of this technique they are calling Dynamic Display.

To keep this thread on track I will repeat what has been said by several others.

CAD is not hard to learn, and there are many very reasonably priced programs available.

I have used some simple graphics program to create pictures, too. Even though they are not CAD, these programs give you the chance to visualize an idea before commiting it to wood. Even the most simple program (like MS Paint) can be used to get an idea about the style and proportions of a project.

[John Hart]

Yup...I'm with you guys. I think a common misconception is that "design" must be complicated. Fundamentals Fundamentals Fundamentals. In Engineering, Stack-up and Tolerance are large concerns...Stack-up being the total size with all the pieces together..and Tolerance, being how far off you can be from your target dimension.

The graphic programs, like as you say, Visio, Paint, etc., are great if you want to get a graphical representation of your idea written down quickly before you lose the thought..And I feel that, at this creative stage, go with KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), that way, you can document your idea without fumbling with menus and rules. After that, when you need help with tolerance and stack-up, apply your idea in the Cad package.

[Wes Newman]

At work (a state agency) they use Microstation. I've never figured out how microstation thinks, and find it bulky and cumbersome. Many of the folks who use it at work, have never used anything but, and think it is great.

My first CAD program was AutoCad in DOS. I went through release 14 with that. Not everyday use but enouogh to keep my hand in.

Now I am piggybacked onto our systems at work using Microstation and I too, am lost mostly.

I just don't use it enough to be proficient and I miss my Autocad.

I did try Turbocad but that was 10 years ago or so. So maybe it is time for another look.

Tony and Robert, I work in Support for Bentley (makers of Microstation) if you guys need help or have questions, I'd be happy to help out. Just PM me.

Thanks

[Walt Pater]

I just recently posted under "tool mistakes" that my 80 buck turboCAD v10 deluxe left my head spinning. My qualms were that the user manual seemed to assume a prior knowledge of CAD, or at least could have been better organized. Could you imagine trying to negotiate CAD for the first time without knowing what a 'snap' is? One of the reasons I got it was to be able to do 3d renderings-clients like 'em. I understand that there is an online tutorial out there: anybody know where?

[John Hart]

Hi Walt...Yeah I saw your post in "Tool Mistakes" and I had to chuckle...I figured you were giving me a dig because of the current conversation there...But anyway...yes, what you are experiencing is a common complaint with most Cad software. It seems they all have an expectation that you know drafting lingo and it's a little hard getting through the manuals.

There are a couple of tutorial sites that'll guide you through some stuff and hook you up with other resources, but like I was saying earlier, it still takes some time and getting accustomed to the menus. Once you've got it, it's a piece of cake and you won't even think anymore...and this is true with most packages as well.

Here's some links
http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/tu.../tutorials.htm

http://www.alfredky.com/TCAD/tutorial/

If you need any help, let me know....But I'm only experienced up to Version 8

Good Luck

[Doug Shepard]

OK here's my $0.02.
I bought TC about 2 months ago and like it, but temporarily abondoned it in favor of SketchUp. I really want to put more time into TC and figure out how to use it because I think the payoff would be worth it. However, given equal time in learning investment, I was able to get significantly farthur in SketchUp than in TC. Had I been coming from a CAD background I think I could have jumped into TC more easily. It's laid out fairly logically and it seems to be about as complete a package as you could want - especially considering it's low price. Seems to be a lot of bang for the buck there. There are also things about the interface that I wish were in SketchUp. Not coming from a CAD background I feel I was about as prepped as I could be for jumping into CAD for the first time. I get a lot of exposure to CAD output at work and know some of the issues and terminology. I had several graphic programming courses in college that directly relate to CAD - at least behind the interface. And I'm a pretty quick study when it comes to learning new software. That said, I was getting pretty impatient with the payback vs. learning curve with TC. I'm not slamming TC. I think in hindsight I would have had the same (or worse) frustration with any other CAD package. I'm hoping I can eventually get TC figured out to the point where I can import/export back and forth between SketchUp and TC to use each for the things it does better than the other.
Just MHO.