Member
It's pretty clear from the website that he's at the stage of having a demonstrator available, and seeking to sell the technology. The unfortunate reality from what I've seen is that it's (in the general sense) very often the case that inventions at this stage get 'borrowed' by seemingly respectable manufacturers, it's no wonder he's cautious. It's a hard road that he's on - lots of stress and frustration if he's invested heavily to get this far.
ian
Administrator
Gentlemen,
David is not allowed to post in this thread, our TOS prohibits him from being involved in any conversation that he has a commercial interest.
Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.
Last edited by Keith Outten; 04-03-2012 at 7:00 AM.
Member
given where it appears the CPSC and California are headed (i.e., requiring blade brake technology on future table saws), i'm surprised that one of the big tool manufacturers doesn't just buy Whirlwind lock, stock, and barrel for themselves. if it's everything the guy says it is, the company that purchases it would appear to then have a potential leg up on their non-SawStop competitors. they would own a technology that they will be required to include with their equipment and then can either license it to their competitors or shut them out completely (see SawStop).
i realize that my comment assumes many things, not the least of which is what Whirlwind is trying to accomplish (i.e., sell the technology or simply license it) and how much it wants for such. i also realize that there are many aspects of the table saw business that i am, shall we say, less than expert in. nevertheless, i find this to be an interesting topic and would love to hear from others that are smarter and more knowledgeable than myself about this.
Contributor
Russ, nice set of disclaimers :-), very wise.....
To get a product from conception, prototype to commercial production is often so long, the patents can expire, and this assumes the inventor will be granted a patent. If a patent is granted, just how enforceable is the patent? Does he have the avg. $600k to defend a patent? It's rare small inventors today can prevail in the patent game, although in this case, the inventor has no other market to pursue, unless he will be SS II. Its rare you find someone like Steve who took SS from conception to a viable manufacturer, he was well funded, and driven beyond 99.9% of the business population. Entering the TS business when he did was surely a major risk, even with his innovative safety technology. Had he could have license his technology, it would have been a cleaner approach to success, but as many have learned from these threads, that was a terrible failure. A mix of "value assessment", egos, legal, market share, prevented major makers from adapting SS technology. This is commonplace in the business world...
There is many ways to skin a cat.... you can be assured all the major makers have been diligently pursuing their own TS safety methods. SS demonstrated a market exists for safer TS's, the big makers don't want to loose market share....to that end, I am sure we will be seeing new introductions of safety features from the big TS makers in the years to come.
Contributor
While I made the point that once you announce a produce, you need to be willing to talk about it, my other point was that when responding to a potential buyer, you'll create more good will for yourself if you address the other person respectfully and in an open manner, rather than attacking them for their word choice.Originally Posted by Ken Fitzgerald
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
Patent law changed in the past year. First to file now gets the patent, which is consistent with the European model. If you do not patent it and someone beats you to filing a patenting for something that is quite similar to what you want to do, it is easy to be out of luck.
In addition, patent prosecution, the art of registering patents at the USPTO, is expensive and for pros, not something to be done lightly.
Not sure if cagey is pejorative or not, but I would be downright silent unti I filed my patent and had a receipt on the filing. You also don't know what, if anything, his patent lawyer may have told him (presuming he is bright enough to have one).
I also point out that the SS technology causes the blade to drop once it makes skin contact. A friend of mine who represents school systems says it is only a matter of time before all the lovely old yellow machines disappear and get offered as surplus.
Member
Will,
the difficulties you describe are why, to me, it would make sense for Whirlwind to just sell the whole kit-n-kaboodle to a tool manufacturer. again, i realize that may not be something Whirlwind is seeking to do. moreover, i would think that the lesson from SawStop is to embrace the changing world or get run over by it. i'm not as convinced as you seem to be that the non-SawStop mfgs are seriously pursuing blade-brake (or similar) technology. if they weren't astute enough to get on board before why should i believe that these folks have "seen the light" and are willing or able to undertake such a dramatic shift in their thinking and manufacturing?
Contributor
Mike,
Do you know that the poster referring to the inventor as "cagey" is or was a potential buyer? I suggest the inventor was just responding to what he considered an insult.
In today's world, the internet is the largest instrument of misinformation in the world. To discuss detailed, proprietary information with anyone who called you on telephone could result in instantaneous misinformation circling the world and doom the future sale of the product.
"Cagey" to me isn't an insult. It's wise to hold such information close to one's self unless it's with a serious potential buyer.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Member
Of COURSE, the real issue is what the writer meant, and what the reader thought, but ... no ... it is NOT an inherently derogatory term, IMHO:
caˇgey also caˇgy (kj
)adj. caˇgiˇer, caˇgiˇest
1. Wary; careful: a cagey avoidance of a definite answer.
2. Crafty; shrewd: a cagey lawyer.
That said, when I first learned of the Whirlwind, I did the above math, and decided that a few too many ATB carbide teeth were going to rip into me, for my tastes.
An eighth of a second ... could be an eternity.
This is Gen 1 stuff, though. Improvements are sure to follow ... from one source or another.
He's no fun. He fell right over !
Contributor
When you sell things, you have to treat everyone as a potential buyer. That's basic marketing. Many people who eventually buy start out as doubters (in fact, that's a good attitude for all buyers to take - require the seller to address your concerns and questions).
I don't think the word "cagey" is an insult either, but apparently the inventor did. But when you're selling, you have to have a thick hide. Potential buyers will challenge you. It goes with the territory.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
That's confused me too, and really knocked this way off track. There's nothing insulting about the word cagey.
Last edited by John Coloccia; 04-03-2012 at 12:01 PM.
Contributor
Neil,
This doesn't work like SS. It trips when you violate the blade guard BEFORE you make contact with the blade and it doesn't damage the blade. An eighth of a second might be enough under those conditions. Don't know if that is enough time and won't waste time investigating or arguing it. I just wanted to point that defining difference out.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Contributor
That's a very good selling point. If it works well, it would avoid even the small cut that you have to sustain with the SawStop to get the brake to activate. But as you point out, Ken, that claim needs to be investigated in more detail.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
It might be a hard sell. Big tool companies may not want to even meet the inventor for a sales presentation.
In fact , wasn't that one reason Ryobi lost. In court I think Sawstop said Ryobi had an opportunity to buy the design ,but turned it down. The court saw that as Ryobi having an opportunity to PREVENT the accident.
I'm not trying to get political. Just saying this as a frustrated inventor myself. The Whirlwind inventor may be up against a bunch of issues.
Last edited by Andrew Joiner; 04-03-2012 at 11:53 AM.
Member
You're right, Ken, and ... it's been so long since I looked at this design that I HAD forgotten about that.
So ....
You have to hope you don't have momentum (falling toward the blade), because that 1/8 second might still be an eternity, and ....
There's that silly "blade guard" thing, again
I'll be anxious to see if it gets into production, and -- if it does -- what people think of it.
He's no fun. He fell right over !
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