Carbide turning tools: Harrison specialities?

[Chris Kennedy]

I just bought my first lathe (JET 1220) and I am looking at chisel sets. The various brands and types have my head reeling. I found these on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00723JN6U/

Does anybody have any experience with them? The set is pricey, but if I could have carbide, I think I would prefer that to high speed steel.

Cheers,

Chris

[Alan Trout]

Chris,

This is my opinion. I have used both carbide and High speed steel tools. First learn to use and sharpen a bowl gouge, spindle gouge, spindle roughing gouge and a skew. These tools can do things that no carbide tools can do. Then if you want to use carbide go ahead and do it but you will have more options if you can use a conventional set of tools first.

Good Luck

Alan

[John Keeton]

Chris, having never used a carbide tool, I shouldn't express an opinion - but, I will! I know there are lots of folks that use them very effectively, but I really think it depends largely on what you want to turn. Alan is right on starting with gouges - this is the best time for you to learn tool technique and the various cuts. There is no way I could use carbide tools for the type of work I do. For other types of turning, they may do fine. After all, they are nothing but scrapers.

[David DeCristoforo]

There have been numerous discussions of carbide tools here. Search the forum and you will find them and a lot of opinions regarding them.

When I first started turning, I had no understanding of how gouges and skews were used. I just stabbed at the wood with them and got the expected results. Horrible catches, tons of tear out, broken pieces, the works. I'm not the most patient person in the world and I wanted to make something, not just destroy wood learning to use the tools properly. I would have loved to take some classes (reinventing the wheel is not the absolutely best way to go) but time and budget constraints precluded this. Sure I watched all those youtube videos, just like everyone else. But in the course of the better part of an adult lifetime working worth wood and tools I had learned something. Using tools requires skill. Skill is partly understanding and knowledge and that part can be taught. Reading books, watching videos and attending demonstrations are good ways to gain that knowledge. But there is another component of skill that cannot be taught in this manner. For lack of a better word, I will call it "feel". As you practice, you begin to develop feel. You know how the tool feels when it's cutting right. You know how it feels when you are taking too big a bite. You can feel the grain starting to tear right through the handle of the tool and you understand how to correct for it. The only way to acquire this feel is to work with the tools. How much time it takes to develop the necessary feel can vary wildly from person to person.

OK, now about those carbide tools (remember? that's what we were talking about?) As many have pointed out, these tools are primarily scraping tools although they can be used in other ways once you get used to them and once you understand how wood is cut on a lathe. But scraping is very easy when compared to cutting with a gouge or a skew, especially for the novice. Scraping is done on the centerline with the tool held flat on the rest and it is relatively easy to control these tools. Oh, yes, there will be a lot of sanding involved. But the likelihood of your actually being able to produce a turned object is greatly enhanced. In addition, you can do this without the additional skills needed to get and keep "conventional" tools sharp.

If there is a "trap" here it would be that you become "dependent" on the scrapers and never learn how to properly sharpen or use the other tools. This would be a great disadvantage because the capabilities of gouges and skews greatly exceeds that of scrapers, carbide or not. So here's what I would suggest. Go ahead and get a few carbide tools. Use them and enjoy some successes while you are learning. But use the other tools too and develop a feel for them. Learn how to keep them sharp. Over time, as your skill level develops, you will find yourself reaching for the scrapers less and less and maybe even get to where they are just gathering dust. But in the meantime, you can produce some decent pieces which will go a long way towards allowing you to experience more than frustration.

[Harvey M. Taylor]

Well said, David. Max

[Bernie Weishapl]

You've gotten some excellent advice. I would echo what DD, John and Alan said. I do have some EWT carbide tools but didn't get them till I had been turning for several years because of the advice of some on here. Again on the advice of some I bought this set when I started turning. http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LCHSS8.html I still use most of these tools today even though I have gotten more expensive tools. Get to know the tools, how to sharpen them and how to use them. I would also find a club near you or someone near you that you could mentor with. There are several members on here in the Virginia area that I am sure would be more than happy to help. There are at least 10 AAW chapters in Virginia. Woodcraft is another good place for lessons on turning.

[Wally Dickerman]

The best advice I can give you regarding tools is...Do yourself a big favor and sign up for a turning lesson. If you have a Woodcraft store in your area, they have experts who give lessons. A good instructor will not only teach you the proper use of the tools and how to sharpen them, he/she will give you good advise on what tools to buy.

A good instuctor will save you many trial and error headaches in learning how to turn.

I taught turning at woodcraft stores for 10 years and I can tell you there is no subsitute for hands-on learning.

[Roger Chandler]

There is a Woodcraft store in Janiff shopping center ....Military Hwy, in Norfolk [at the corner of Military Hwy and Virginia Beach Blvd.] where the Tidewater Turners meet monthly, and they are a fine club with many excellent turners..........go to one of their meetings............get the info on their website...just look up Tidewater Turners, and you will find their web pages, and get info on their meetings.

You can't go wrong with this kind of help!!!! Good luck!

[Al Wasser]

Keeton says "nothing but scrapers". Do I detect some bias against scrapers?

[John Keeton]

Keeton says "nothing but scrapers". Do I detect some bias against scrapers?

Al, no bias here. I just do not use scrapers much, though folks like Reed Gray and others can work wonders with them.

For me, learning to turn is somewhat akin to learning to drive. IMO, it is better to learn to drive on a standard shift as that is when one is developing the various skills used in operating a motor vehicle. If you don't learn to drive a stick shift at the beginning, it is doubtful you ever will. I feel the same about the carbide tools. They probably have their place, but starting out, I think one is best served by learning the various tool techniques of gouges. If, at a later point, one wants the ease and quickness of the carbide tools, then have at it!

For the type of turning I do, I just have not seen the need. Obviously, they are very popular and work for a lot of folks.

[Chris Kennedy]

Thanks for the advice. I have been looking at a whole mess of different types of chisels and the like, trying to decide what would be a good initial purchase. I am considering several "starter" type sets so that I have something to experiment with and then specialize as need arises.

Chris

[Richard Allen]

I have never used the carbide tools pointed to. I have used a couple of Hunter tools from time to time. I find turning quicker and more predictable using bowl gouges. Perhaps if I had started off using carbide tools (they were not available when I started14 years ago) I would find those tools quicker and more predictable.

As more experience is gained with the carbide insert tools there will be more demonstrations using carbide insert tools. As more woodturners see carbide insert tools being used to good effect more turners will add the use of carbide insert tools to their workflow.

[Vernon Jenewein]

Not an endorsement, merely a video showing use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qadKSh2du0
I bought one and have just set up my small lathe in the small quonset. I needed to make a table long enough for the bed extension and clean out some accumulated "junk" that was needed for room. Then, I wired it with 120 on that side today. I'll give it a try soon. I'll interject my thoughts, even though I'm just a newbie turner. Sharp point/edge is what a tool is, any tool. I've worked with hardened steel at Boeing when I worked there years ago. Carbide is sometimes the only thing that will do and keep sharp enough, long enough to be feasible. My tool I bought has a 6" radius, and you can get others as well, even round. Nothing is quite as tough and resilient for cutting as carbide. Brittle to a T. But, it has a sharp edge that, in wood, should remain sharp long after you've had to sharpen those HSS tools several times. I've seen diamond shaped carbide inserts that would be perfect for doing a lot of fine work. Delicate touch is what is needed. Scraper? Pretty much all of them are scrapers to some degree. Wood has to meet and edge somewhere and the momentum just chips it away. Carbide's unforgiving sharp edge it more likely to "cut" than to scrape away wood. Nice thing about them is when the DO get dull enough to warrant changing, it is merely a 1/4 turn and you have a fresh new edge to cut with.
Also, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjF8JM714EU

[Kirk Miller]

I will echo what has been expressed and say to get a class scheduled. Then after the class take time to practice what was taught at the class. Check around for turning clubs that may offer classes. I bought a cheap set of tools from harbor freight and still use them to this day. I have many different tools now but several from that set have are in the top 10 of my favorite tools.

[Tim Rinehart]

Chris, some good advice here especially with regards to getting the basics down first with conventional HSS gouges.
There is a difference among type of carbide tools out there, with some that are pure scrapers and others that do shear the wood fibers like a gouge riding a bevel.

Since most folks are familiar with both Easy Tools and Hunter Tools...I'll break it down using them for a reference.

Easy Wood tools are scrapers. Period. Most all their tools (hedging in case I forget an exception) are presented in a way that has the flat topped (zero rake) cutter horizontal to the lathe and applied like a scraper. Because they stay sharp a long time, you can get very nice, very predictable results ... but not much better than you'd get with a sharp HSS scraper that is kept sharp. The EWT hollowing tools are made very well, and I know several experienced turners who swear by them for inside of hollow forms after seeing how well they work. They will leave tearout in some softer woods from my experience.

Hunter tools shear the wood fibers and at the least, shear-scrape. The tools are cupped (positive rake) and are held at an angle to the bed of the lathe to prevent a catch if held horizontally. They take more practice, but when you get the feel of them, they will provide a better surface than scraping, and will avoid tear out in all but the softest woods. Using these for hollowing, and working from the bottom of a vessel...they are pulled downhill to the largest part of the ID of the vessel and depending on shape of tool and vessel, you actually ride the bevel on these. Using them on the inside of the top of a vessel, their approach to the wood is more 'shear-scrape' and still provides a very nice surface finish.

Carbide really excels on hollowing woods that would otherwise beat the heck out of HSS and have you spending alot of time sharpening. Recent work I've done where all carbide was used include cherry burl and red mallee, both somewhat notorious for dulling tools.

Hope this helps.