Getting tool marks out of NE bowls?

[Ed Morgano]

This is a question for all of you Master Bowl turners. I'm doing some Pecan NE bowls and I'm having no luck getting the tool marks out of the inside of the bowls. I'm using a skew layed over on it's side for the outside of the bowls and that works pretty well. However, I am getting some tearout on the outside. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Roger Chandler]

Morning Ed,

One way I have learned to help with tool marks is that I use a very sharp bowl gouge and use a shear cut with the wing. A shear cut can be achieved by lowering the handle and raising the tip of the gouge a bit.........especially when you are in the tenon area, and sweeping towards the rim..........as you get closer to the rim the less overhang of the tool over the tool rest and then you must maintain the same shear angle of the cutting wing..........

You need to take several passes with light cuts, and you will get a much better surface.....you will get very fine curlees, some call them angel hair curlees.........however, some pieces of wood seem to want to tear out no matter what you do, but you will still get a much better surface and a lot less sanding.........

BTW, I do not consider myself a master bowl turner by any stretch of the imagination, but I have made a few along the way!

[Don McClure]

I use a spray bottle with a drop of dish soap in it to wet the inside rim area, plus a gouge just off the grinder. Make as very light cut. I have found this to help minimize the tear out.

[Ed Morgano]

Thanks for the responses. Looks like I have some practicing to do. I'll let you know how I do today.

[Bill Hensley]

When all else fails, sand the crap out of it!

[Jason Ritchie]

Ed, I'm right there with you man. I have the same kind of issues. The 2 spots on the bowl that have end grain always tear on me no matter how light of a cut with the bowl gouge I take. I also used to use a scraper to scrap the outside of the bowl to try and help clean that up. One thing I found that helps me (still have not eliminated the issue completely) is to start taking lighter cuts before I get to my final outside shape. It takes longer this way but it seems when I take heavier roughing cuts it causes damage to the fibers down deep in the wood and makes it hard to get out. Also, I somewhat got the hang of doing the shear cuts with the bowl gouge up high just last night and it does do a wonderful job. Much better than the skew scrap leaves. Watch a couple bowl tuning videos on Youtube to see the bowl gouge shearing cut. I like watching Cap'N Eddie Castelin, Carl Jacobson(HaydenHD), and Robbiethewood. I have learned a lot from these guys. For the inside of the bow, I have not yet mastered getting a smooth cut so I just sand the heck out of it! lol Sanding in reverse helps too even if your lathe doesn't have reverse, just turning backwards by hand while you sand causes those fibers to come away. I also want to try the dish soap method Don mentioned myself to see how that does.

Two very important tips for you here from me (also a somewhat beginner) are:

1. Either buy or do like I did and make a sharpening jig so you can create a consistent sharp grind then sharpen right before you make your light cuts. The gouge may feel very sharp already but trust me it makes a huge difference.

2. Don't get frustrated and keep practicing. When I bought my first bowl gouge (about 3 months ago) I was almost ready to through it out the window. I though it was defective, I though I had ground it wrong, I was very frustrated. I kept driving myself to try using it and by watching those Youtube videos I have really come along quickly with this tool. I still get catches now and then but not as bad as I was. I was blowing the side out of bowls with catches. Keep trying and you will start mastering these techniques. I seem to get better with every bowl I turn.

Best of luck and let us know how you get along! If you have trouble finding any videos demonstrating the bowl gouge shear cut let me know and I will do a small video or pics of how I do it.

Thanks Don for the tip on the dish soap and water. I'm going to try that on my next bowl to see if it will help with my challenges!

[Reed Gray]

I have more tool marks on my natural edged bowls than I do on my basic bowls. I finally figures out that I was pushing too hard, and/or cutting too fast, which left more tool marks/ridges. By slowing down, these get better.

Tear out is another issue. Some woods are nasty no matter what you do (cotton wood is a prime example). A sharp tool, and a high shear angle. A scraping cut (scraper flat on the tool rest) has 0 shear. If you roll it up on its side, to 45 or so degrees, you get a lot cleaner cut. This can be done with gouges as well. Some people drop the handle, and roll the flutes over for a shear cut. I prefer to hold my gouges more level, use a more C shaped flute instead of the V shapes, and roll the flutes to between 57 and 90 degrees. This also gets you a high shear angle, and you have a larger sweet spot/cutting edge for getting in under the fiber, gently lifting them up and slicing them off. I use the fluteless gouges from Doug Thompson a lot. I did take a spindle/detail gouge and put a ) profile on the nose, and rolled on its side again, I get a high shear angle. You do need 2 gouges for the inside. One for down the walls (45 degree bevel) and one to go through the transition and across the bottom (60 + degree bevel). Getting the wood fibers damp helps lubricate them or some thing, I don't really know, but dampen it, wait 60 seconds, and take a couple of light passes to turn off the wet wood. Water works, soapy water works, oil finish works, basically any fluid will help out. Then, when all else fails, there is the 80 grit gouge.

robo hippy

[Jamie Donaldson]

shearscraper.jpgUsing the bowl gouge wing to make a shearing cut at about 45 degrees edge to the wood on the outside is a winner. For dry or punky wood tearout I apply a lacquer sanding sealer thinned about 10% with acetone to stabilize the wood before shearing. The lacquer mix also works well on the inside, but with a sharp scraper rolled on edge to about 45 degrees. Years ago I made this scraper with a 3/4" shaft of cold rolled steel from Lowes, fitted with a shaper blade that allows me to roll it any way desired. It is modeled after the Sorby Multitip which now sells for about $80, and I have less that $10 in this tool.

[Mark Levitski]

tool marks out of the inside of the bowls

If this is happening towards the rim where there can be some air turned between the wings, then slow and very steady is a necessity. If you are applying any pressure against the piece with the bevel of the tool in an attempt to stay true to riding or rubbing it, then when that air shows up under the tool you push it into the piece past where it should be cutting. Result: marks of various sorts. Un even surfaces of the bark edge, even if there is no air, can do this also. Pretend you are rubbing a bevel, but don't apply any pressure. Steady movement in the direction of the cutting only. This should help. You will notice a great difference in the feel of the cut as you get out of those air gaps and bark into pure wood.

If it is happening towards the bottom, then it is likely do to coming off the guidance of the bevel as you make the transition into the bottom. Use a different angle gouge so that your cut can proceed with good bevel support.


Good luck..................Mark

[Ed Morgano]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I had a very good day today with my NE Pecan bowls. I slowed down a lot and my finishes started getting better and better. I don't have two bowl gouges with two different angles so I had trouble on the inside. However, I do have an articulated arm which I set up and used with great results. Again, the trick was slowing down a lot, using a firm but light cut on the wings, etc. I feel like a accomplished a lot today thanks to everyone here.

[Jim Burr]

Ed...I hate to prolong the issue, but there are a few different kind of tool marks. To share your pain...I have low level bumps...evenly spaced, all they way down the inside of the bowl...kinda like speed bumps or a wave. I'm thinking a speed of push/pull -vs- rpm thing. Not sure yet.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Jim,
I find NE bowls flex more than regular bowls. I suppose a lot has to do with the fact that the wings are not supported. I find it best to finish the wings early in process of turning the inside and I don't go back to them. Keeping mass in the bottom of the bowl allows the wings to remain stiffer and without the vibration, I get a better surface.

[Don Alexander]

a few sayings come to mind that i have found to be very very valuable in turning as well as in a lot of other things

1) "patience is a virtue"
2) "the hurrieder i go, the behinder i get"

and some advice i received when i first started turning which has been very valuable to me

1) "use SHARP tools"
2) "find the sweet spot"
3) "take light cuts"
4) "repeat steps 1-3 repeatedly"

[robert baccus]

Anyone can throw shavings across the room. that comes easy. take time to learn how to cut "frog hair" with your tools.--------old forester

[Rob Price]

I have more tool marks on my natural edged bowls than I do on my basic bowls. I finally figures out that I was pushing too hard, and/or cutting too fast, which left more tool marks/ridges. By slowing down, these get better.

Tear out is another issue. Some woods are nasty no matter what you do (cotton wood is a prime example). A sharp tool, and a high shear angle. A scraping cut (scraper flat on the tool rest) has 0 shear. If you roll it up on its side, to 45 or so degrees, you get a lot cleaner cut. This can be done with gouges as well. Some people drop the handle, and roll the flutes over for a shear cut. I prefer to hold my gouges more level, use a more C shaped flute instead of the V shapes, and roll the flutes to between 57 and 90 degrees. This also gets you a high shear angle, and you have a larger sweet spot/cutting edge for getting in under the fiber, gently lifting them up and slicing them off. I use the fluteless gouges from Doug Thompson a lot. I did take a spindle/detail gouge and put a ) profile on the nose, and rolled on its side again, I get a high shear angle. You do need 2 gouges for the inside. One for down the walls (45 degree bevel) and one to go through the transition and across the bottom (60 + degree bevel). Getting the wood fibers damp helps lubricate them or some thing, I don't really know, but dampen it, wait 60 seconds, and take a couple of light passes to turn off the wet wood. Water works, soapy water works, oil finish works, basically any fluid will help out. Then, when all else fails, there is the 80 grit gouge.

robo hippy

I guess I'm just dense and have a hard time converting the words to image, do any of you guys have pics of what you're talking about. I've watched countless videos on youtube trying to get a better idea, but none of them are really up close on the gouge.

I have the same issues, definitely more tool marks on the few NE bowls I've done compared to the few regular bowls I've done- I chalk up most of it to my inexperience but also to flexing of the wings. I really appreciate being able to come here and see questions posted that might as well be from me. Gotta love the experience offered up here.