How to best remove brush strokes from Waterlox finish

[Alan Lightstone]

Still don't know the best approach to this. All I know is that I've managed to screw this one up multiple times. As I often seem to demonstrate, "Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions."

Here's a picture of a brushed on waterlox original s/f top:

Brush-marks.jpg

The rest of the piece looks fabulous.

What is the best approach to fix these brush marks:

1.) Just brush another coat on top of this. (In my experience, the marks still show.)
2.) Sand this coat level using x grit sandpaper (please specify "x") (In my experience this doesn't work so hot either, unless you sand off below the entire coat).
3.) Another method (please send ideas my way.)

This is why I have gravitated to wiping on coats of Waterlox, but I just had a real disaster with huge numbers of witness lines after rubbing out a piece, so I'm looking for level thicker coats this time.

[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Alan,

You are right that # 1 won't work. # 2 is the only option I know. Presumably - according to Waterlox - you can blend but I have found that I have needed to sand a pretty good size are larger than the trouble spot to get good results this way. In this case I would put a 220 Abranet mesh disc on your best orbit sander with a mid speed and sand to smooth. I would sand the trouble area smooth, then sand the remaining area lightly just to some what ease the good edges into the newly smoothed area. Clean off the dust then just apply a liberal coat with your best brush. If the brush marks are restricted to the last coat you might be done after the 1st coat. Otherwise you will likely need a 2nd coat on the damaged area. After the 24 hours without sanding between coats - you should be able to flow the 2nd coat just on the trouble spot with very light feathering into the "good" area. Being on a corner like that you will likely need to pull the finish around the corner following the grain of the wood to get optimum blend. Work in a cool area with minimal air flow so that it all has a chance to flow. I would not hesitate to add Penetrol to the Waterlox .

Sam

[Alan Lightstone]

I would not hesitate to add Penetrol to the Waterlox .

Sam

I've heard this before (might have been from you, Sam). How much should you use? (Their web site only states for outdoor use. I gather you don't take that as gospel.)

I forgot what the latest consensus was. For brushing, are people thinning Waterlox S/F (since it's already thinned with MS)? If so, how much.

[sheldon pettit]

Still don't know the best approach to this. All I know is that I've managed to screw this one up multiple times. As I often seem to demonstrate, "Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions."

Here's a picture of a brushed on waterlox original s/f top:

Brush-marks.jpg

The rest of the piece looks fabulous.

What is the best approach to fix these brush marks:

1.) Just brush another coat on top of this. (In my experience, the marks still show.)
2.) Sand this coat level using x grit sandpaper (please specify "x") (In my experience this doesn't work so hot either, unless you sand off below the entire coat).
3.) Another method (please send ideas my way.)

This is why I have gravitated to wiping on coats of Waterlox, but I just had a real disaster with huge numbers of witness lines after rubbing out a piece, so I'm looking for level thicker coats this time.

I'm not sure how big your surface[s] are Alan, but if not to large, i would suggest using a preval sprayer and actually spraying the coating on. Or if you already have a spray gun and compressor that would be best. If you could get tri-methyl-benzene to add to it, which you can't - you could reduce the ester gum so that the coating would flow better, so the next best thing is to spray if possible, that is after sanding what you now have as smooth as possible - [400/600/800/

[Sam Murdoch]

I've heard this before (might have been from you, Sam). How much should you use? (Their web site only states for outdoor use. I gather you don't take that as gospel.)

I forgot what the latest consensus was. For brushing, are people thinning Waterlox S/F (since it's already thinned with MS)? If so, how much.

You can thin to the max. Penetrol suggest 1 to 2.5 pints per gallon of finish. I would add the minimum. It is not to thin but to aid in flowing. I don't normally add it to Waterlox projects unless I am working in high heat and/or humidity conditions.

I called Flood - the maker of Penetrol- last summer and asked them if I could add Penetrol to Waterlox and another tung oil varnish for my project and I was told yes. I was finishing a floor at the time with many of the same issues of brush marks that are now troubling you. I don't know why they say "exterior use only" - I didn't ask but I'm guessing that it is the Flood way to get around that Penetrol is not a low VOC product.

I haven't tried spraying it, but of course if you can that would solve the problem of blending in beautifully. My new HVLP is arriving next Tuesday and I do intend to try spraying Waterlox. I don't know if a Preval sprayer can handle the viscosity of Waterlox so I defer to Sheldon and others who may have done this.

[sheldon pettit]

Sam, i'll have to look up penetrol to see what it is, thnx for the info. and yes, you would have to adjust the viscosity for spraying with a preval sprayer for sure. Normally i use other diluents than penetrol? So i will hold off commenting on this.

Yep, penetrol is just Stoddard solvent [type of mineral spirits] and benzene derivative, good to go. If diluted that much though, keep in mind it will take 2 coats to approximate the build of one unthinned coat on a top surface. And since it will run easier on a verticle surface you would need to spray lighter coats also at least 3 maybe 4 to get equal mil build when dry.

[Scott Holmes]

Sanding smooth with a ROS is not the best approach. Flat is the desired outcome, not smooth. There is a difference. This looks like a flat surface in the picture. ROS tend to follow the contours and will not flatten as well as a hard sanding block. Hook & Loop are rather soft and also follow the hills and valleys. This is a good time to listen to the radio and hand sand with a firm block.

Edit: You asked about thinning the Waterlox Sealer finish. It is already about 50% Waterlox and 50% mineral spirits. Use a high quality brush.

[sheldon pettit]

Sanding smooth with a ROS is not the best approach. Flat is the desired outcome, not smooth. There is a difference. This looks like a flat surface in the picture. ROS tend to follow the contours and will not flatten as well as a hard sanding block. Hook & Loop are rather soft and also follow the hills and valleys. This is a good time to listen to the radio and hand sand with a firm block.

Edit: You asked about thinning the Waterlox Sealer finish. It is already about 50% Waterlox and 50% mineral spirits. Use a high quality brush.

Your absolutely correct about the difference Scott, from what I can see though, the surrounding area looks pretty flat, "glass flat- can't tell. But since were only talking a couple of mil or so being removed and more than that being re-applied, i think it's inconsequential as to causing some dire visual anomaly?

As to my suggested spraying , with a normal size gun, no thinning should be necessary, with a preval sprayer however at least some would be, that would have to be determined, As to brushes, the best tools in the wrong hands is no better than the worst tools in the right hands, it's a matter of know how, more than the tools, I'm sure you know this also.

[Sam Murdoch]

... and the reason that I prefer the ROS is because it will sand the general area as well as the trouble spot without overworking just the trouble spot as hand sanding might. I like Waterlox because it is not a fussy finish - this is the expression on Alan's face as he reads my last line - Sand the high spots with some generous overlap into the surrounding area and the Waterlox will level out nicely. Brings me to another point that the Waterlox guy in a phone conversation kept insisting - let the Waterlox level itself. "Each day that you allow it to dry it will even out more". My last job for which I was using the satin finish (and you've read my rants about that product) I had so much trouble getting a nice even finish. I had no time to wait for the Waterlox Genie to do his work. Some areas on my cabinet never were to my liking, while others were so perfect !!!! What a frustration. Have to say though, 6 months later, I can't see the problem areas anymore. My client's couldn't be happier and now - me too.

[Alan Lightstone]

... I like Waterlox because it is not a fussy finish - this is the expression on Alan's face as he reads my last line

Perhaps it's possible for me to type while actively seizing/banging my head against the wall. Perhaps not. LOL.

I'm also fond of ROS (probably because I have some good ones, and also because I have extensive experience detailing exotic cars, so I can get a pristine finish on clear coat finishes on Lamborghinis and Ferraris.) It's getting a pristine finish on wood that is challenging me.

I hate painting. Finishing isn't that much higher on my list, though I love the look and feel of a great wood finish. It's a necessary evil to me. If I build something, I have to finish it. I have great respect for you guys who do this all the time with fabulous results.

The surface is extremely flat, and before the coat I just brushed on, quite smooth. Using a Grammercy Tools brush, so it's not the brush, it's my technique.

Picked up some Penetrol. I'll try to add some after sanding off the brush marks. The real shame is that 95% of the top looks fantastic, but I clearly screwed up by going over one area with the brush after it was good. I can't get out of that habit, and have paid the price before with Waterlox. Despite what the instructions say, I find it doesn't like to be tipped off with a brush unless it is done immediately after the first brushing. Even a few minutes later -- you get brush marks.

It would be difficult for me to spray Waterlox, due to the explosion issues. I do have a Fuji HVLP system, and a knock down spray booth I can set up, but it has a conventional fan/filter, not an explosion proof one. Plus the water heater is in my garage/workshop.

I live in Tampa Bay. It is a high humidity area. This may be making things more difficult for me. My workshop has A/C, but I tend to keep it off when finishing to avoid dust being kicked up, etc.. It would blow directly on the piece.

I am clearly heavy handed with the sanding when I was trying to rub out the top. I had extensive witness lines. No question I need a thicker last coat. In that respect, wiping varnish has failed me. For pieces that I don't rub out, it has worked great for me.

[Sam Murdoch]

Alan, the worst experience I have had with Waterlox was trying to apply it mid- August 80° + days, heavy rain 2 nights in a row on the banks of a tidal river with beams of sunshine pouring in during the day. Man if you can run the air conditioner before you start applying the finish, at least to get the temp and humidity under control for the critical first 3 or 4 hours you will be fine. YES, " Despite what the instructions say, I find it doesn't like to be tipped off with a brush unless it is done immediately after the first brushing. Even a few minutes later -- you get brush marks." - DON'T DO THAT.


I don't RUB OUt Waterlox and maybe that's part of the issue. I don't think of Waterlox as a car quality finish, but as a very very durable, good looking wood finish that enhances the grain nicely. I don't use it to achieve the same result as French polishing. No grain fill, no grit higher than 220, no sanding between coats etc. Others may have more to say on that aspect. For me - Waterlox is a more durable, film building, 1 next step beyond when I want more of a finish than I get with Watco.

Good luck.

Sam

[Alan Lightstone]

OK. So I sanded off the previous brushed on coat with 320 grit paper. It appeared perfectly flat and smooth. Vacuumed, wiped off dust. Pristine surface.

Now I brushed again with Grammercy tools brush, using Waterlox Original S/F with penetrol added. Perhaps this did help with levelling, but again I see brush marks and spots where the finish has lines from thicker finish than others. It did not level at all perfectly. With wiped on coats, all of these issues would be moot.

So I'm anticipating that in 24 hours I'll be sanding again. The only good news is that all these brushed on, and sanded off coats have made all the pores totally sealed (the few that were missed with the grain sealer a month ago).

So where do I go from here? I'm trying to obtain a semi-gloss, smooth surface. One with that really nice rubbed out feel and look. There is no question that the Waterlox looks fantastic on this sapele, but I really want a great surface when I'm done.

Any suggestions? Should I think about wiping on Waterlox and then topping with another finish that I can rub out. Is P&L 38 more forgiving? Should I drag out the HVLP stuff and spray on the Waterlox, or another finish? And if sprayed, wouldn't that be an even thinner coat that would prevent rubbing it out?

I've been working on this project for 9 months. The finish line is in sight. I thought a few days ago I was within an hour of finishing it, but now I've jumped way back.

Need smarter heads for this one. Despite getting a lot of experience with Waterlox over the past year, this top is getting the better of me.

Again, my goals are:
1.) Waterlox look to the wood (Amber, Chatoyance, etc.)
2.) Semi Gloss
3.) Smooth tactilly, as rubbed out surfaces are.
4.) Durable (It will be on a working drafting table).

As always, thanks in advance for all your advice.

[sheldon pettit]

OK. So I sanded off the previous brushed on coat with 320 grit paper. It appeared perfectly flat and smooth. Vacuumed, wiped off dust. Pristine surface.

Now I brushed again with Grammercy tools brush, using Waterlox Original S/F with penetrol added. Perhaps this did help with levelling, but again I see brush marks and spots where the finish has lines from thicker finish than others. It did not level at all perfectly. With wiped on coats, all of these issues would be moot.

So I'm anticipating that in 24 hours I'll be sanding again. The only good news is that all these brushed on, and sanded off coats have made all the pores totally sealed (the few that were missed with the grain sealer a month ago).

So where do I go from here? I'm trying to obtain a semi-gloss, smooth surface. One with that really nice rubbed out feel and look. There is no question that the Waterlox looks fantastic on this sapele, but I really want a great surface when I'm done.

Any suggestions? Should I think about wiping on Waterlox and then topping with another finish that I can rub out. Is P&L 38 more forgiving? Should I drag out the HVLP stuff and spray on the Waterlox, or another finish? And if sprayed, wouldn't that be an even thinner coat that would prevent rubbing it out?

I've been working on this project for 9 months. The finish line is in sight. I thought a few days ago I was within an hour of finishing it, but now I've jumped way back.

Need smarter heads for this one. Despite getting a lot of experience with Waterlox over the past year, this top is getting the better of me.

Again, my goals are:
1.) Waterlox look to the wood (Amber, Chatoyance, etc.)
2.) Semi Gloss
3.) Smooth tactilly, as rubbed out surfaces are.
4.) Durable (It will be on a working drafting table).

As always, thanks in advance for all your advice.

Still think your best bet is spraying, but i would let the area you just did dry for alot longer than a day, let it harden up as good as the rest first.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Is P&L 38 more forgiving?

Possibly..
It's a heavier bodied material that will accept Penetrol better.
Penetrol slows down the dry of the material and helps it keep a wet edge.

Brush marks (when using a decent quality brush) always come from improper technique.

Work out of a seperate container, not the can the material came in.
Dip the brush no more than 1/2 the bristle length into the material.
Gently press the brush against the side to remove any excess.

Dragging the brush across the rim will remove material form the bristles. When you lay the material out on the surface, those dry bristles will pick up material and leave brush marks.

Only apply just enough pressure to the brush so that the bristles slightly bend over. Too much bending of the bristles will result in the sides of the bristles doing the work and not the tips. The sides of the bristles are reservoirs - the tips are flagged so they can release the material better - make sure you're using the tips to lay out and level the material.

Lay put the material, then go back and level it with another stroke, then move on to the next one.
Overlap the first stroke by 25%. Some will say 50%. but, I find 25% easier to do.
Either/or, it's up to what works best for you.

Should I drag out the HVLP stuff and spray on the Waterlox, or another finish? And if sprayed, wouldn't that be an even thinner coat that would prevent rubbing it out?

Absolutely! ( even though it's thinner - just rub it out and repeat another coat)
If yo're better with the HVLP, then go ahead and use it.
A good brushed finish is something you either:
- Have a knack for
- Have the patience to learn how to do
- Have had a good teacher to walk you through the steps (and whomp you upside the head with a 2x4 on occasion - just to make sure you're paying attention )
- Have to admit to yourself that you can't paint like DaVinci, compose like Beethoven or sing like that fat lady in the Opera...so ...what's just one more thing you can't do got to do with anything?

FWIW - my old friend and mentor, old Floyd tried to teach me - and threatened to whomp me with a 2x4....
I can tell you all the proper mechanics - but - I'm no master of the brush.
Not bad - but - I doubt if I'll ever get to the stage of laying out a flawless gloss finish.

Yep, penetrol is just Stoddard solvent [type of mineral spirits] and benzene derivative, good to go

Penetrol is a blend of alkyd oil/linseed oil and their own blend of polymerized linseed oil - with mineral spirits, white spirits (Stoddard solvent) and naptha added.
I've never seen or heard of Penetrol having an adverse effect on or reaction to any "oil based" product.

[Alan Lightstone]

Yeah, I'm no DaVinci. Which is a great inside joke, as the LOML is an artist. I'm clearly not awesome with a brush.

I'm going to try a few coats with the brush and see how it goes. If still crummy, I'll sand it off and spray on a finish. It might be Target Coatings EM6000 to ensure that it burns in and leaves me enough to work with to rub out. It's funny, I have pretty solid finesse polishing out car finishes, yet don't seem to possess the same finesse with wood finishes.

My problems with brushes seem to be that I probably apply too much pressure (bend too much), plus I can't help going over an area to remove a nib or hair - which leaves those brush marks. I need someone to hit me upside the head with a 2x4 before I do that.

I would have to do something underneath the EM6000 to get the color I want. That might be a number of wiped on coats of Waterlox followed by dewaxed amber shellac, or some Boiled Linseed oil followed by dewaxed amber shellac. In either case, it will be a shame.

Let's hope the brushing goes well.

I'm going to try to just sand the brush mark areas today, then clean and brush on another coat of Waterlox F/S with Penetrol in it.