Making Apricot wood REALLY dark ?

[Vernon Jenewein]

I have Apricot wood to turn into Duduks, and I am asking for opinions on how they turned my present duduk I have from Armenia, so dark colored. It is nearly black. I also have a Duduk I bought on eBay that has more lighter color than this one I have made by a Master Karen Mukayelyan of Armenia. When I first got it, the Duduk had a hint of smoke smell to it, but this is from running a red hot poker up the length to clean out wood chips and they also use a poker to fine tune the instrument. In the video I provided a link to, you can see one being made, and all he does to color it is put it in sawdust for a few months. Never heard of that. You can see that at about 10:20 into the video. He puts in a blond piece of turned duduk into the sawdust and pulls it out later all black colored. Is this smoke and mirrors, or does the wood actually turn dark in sawdust? I am a newbie at woodworking, having just made my first duduk on a lathe the other day (less the finger holes) and it was my first time running a lathe. But, it does not make sense to me that a piece of wood would turn dark just in the saw dust. Looks like ALL of the small chips of wood would also turn dark. I sense it is dark stained, off camera, and then put into the sawdust to make it seem like it takes all this time to make a duduk, hence the dollar value on selling them.

I also noticed that he puts Lime (hydrate of Calcium Carbonate) on the duduk later on, and then rubs it with oil to bring out the dark color. Now, I have read about using Lime to bring out wood grain, but don't know if it would have this much influence in the color of the wood.

Here is the link to the video, where (HOW) they get their blanks, prepare the wood (seasoning) and turning on a lathe. to the drilling and coloring of the apricot wood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHuC_guTDtw

[Roger Chandler]

I am not sure about apricot particularly, but if your intent is to get the wood to "ebonize" then there are many ways, not the least of which is an alcohol based dye like "transtint"...........I have used Febings leather dye......it is alcohol based and dries quickly.............it will work on all woods.

Many turners color their finials with an alcohol based dye to ebonize them..............if you are just looking for making it appear black, then that will work...........also india ink works fantastically............possibly the best way to ebonize.

There is also another process using vinegar and steel wool to make a soaking solution...........that will work, but takes a bit longer and there is info somewhere in the archives of SMC where a few have used this technique..........if my memory serves me correctly, Ken Hill has used this technique on some of his duck calls..........perhaps it was Aaron ________, I forget his last name off the top of my head.........but look up duck calls and you will likely find some pics of his work.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Vern.

I have no answers to this question of dark color or long drilling. But I am fascinated by your project. I listened to a duduk on youtube - very beautiful tone and versatile sounds. Thank you for sharing your progress and your questions.

Brian

[John Keeton]

Brian Boggs has a very good article on the vinegar ebonizing process here.

[Vernon Jenewein]

Thanks John for Brian Boggs article with using that tanning solution and vinegar/steel wool. I work as an Associate Winemaker at a local winery and have access to a variety of tannins on the shelf. One that come to mind is a ground tannin made from oak spurs left from insect or other damages. Quite tannic. Worth a try on some of the left over pieces I have for staining experiments. I might also try using some black walnut husks with black walnuts inside that I gathered near our place. If you get that stuff wet, it is really staining. It has a high tannin content on it's own, and together with alcohol as a carrier might penetrate well into the wood. Then, even a light application with iron oxide would be worth a try. I might even try washed steel wool with soap, and then put the wet steel wool in a glass jar and lid with hole in the top for venting and apply Oxygen from a welding tank. It accelerates the oxidation without the need of vinegar. I work in the lab at the winery, and sort of dig chemistry. *S*

Brian: I'll keep you all updated if you want on the duduk. I recently emailed a friend of mine in Cairo Egypt about anyone that had done the Armenian song, "Dle Yeman" on a duduk in the key of A. So what did he do but record it on his "A" key duduk and post it on You Tube for me. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RyoJ9qroqs Another friend of mine, Chris Bleth, from LA California played parts of the background music of The Passion of The Christ on a Duduk, and this song was one he did on his duduk for the movie score. If you have the movie you can see it where Jesus has collapsed on the road and a woman brings him a towel and a drink of water. Chris played the song in that particular scene.
Another song of more common to us Westerners is Amazing Grace. One hears it often on a bagpipe. Here is it's link, and it's only about 1 minute long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwmmC5AhMqs The duduk comes in different keys, depending on the length and the finger hole placement. There are also 2 holes underneath the instrument. Because it is Middle Eastern, going back about 3000 years, it has different scales than a normal instrument. In other words, the notes played progressively up or down the instrument do not come out to be even full note, but sometimes notes that are sharp, and even then it is controlled by the mouthpiece pressure and how much the finger covers the hole. It can make it go progressively from one note to the other without separation of notes, meaning like a sliding trombone. Now used a lot in several movie backgrounds, as well as TV background seen in some parts of NCIS and other, as well as some games. Now, for something that I think is some really pretty duduk/balaban playing is this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ed6XlHQOow A famous Russian belly dancer, Kaira, uploaded one of her videos and used music played by Alihan Samedov on a Balaban (which is the Azerbaijani form of a duduk). No worries, she is fully clothed(beautiful hair), but the music is really stunning, and has a most soulful sound to it.

I also have a picture of the 2 duduks I have. One that is lighter is one from eBay, and the other from an Armenian Master Duduk maker, more "concert" quality.

simon_karen_compare.jpg

mks_markings.jpg

[Deane Allinson]

I can't help on the coloring process. I watched part of the video link but couldn't get by the "free handing" of the log blanks on that table saw. I haven't seen anything that spooky in a while.
Deane

[Vernon Jenewein]

I can't help on the coloring process. I watched part of the video link but couldn't get by the "free handing" of the log blanks on that table saw. I haven't seen anything that spooky in a while.
Deane

Yea, I never saw anything like that either. You should continue on and see their turning operation! To drill the hole, the lathe turns the duduk while the guy freehand pushes a drill into it. I wondered how he managed to do that to keep it straight AND keep from turning. I looked closer and it appears he welded a piece of stell rod onto the drill perpendicular to the drill bit and that rod is then placed in the center slot on the bed of the lathe to keep it from rotating. Burning out the wood with a red hot poker, held in a hand was also interesting. LOL It really is funny strange and sort of sad that these people in Armenia have made such instruments in the most "use-what-you-got" sort of way. You would think they'd take it to a lumber mill and have that wood sliced up after cutting to shorten the drying time, but I understand the average income is very low for those folks.

My thoughts are that with some modern equipment, and some skill one can create or duplicate that which was done in such a manner. I also saw a video on how they "used" to do it. Sawed off a piece of split wood, whittled it down with what looked like an overgrown garden hoe, then using a pocket knife put in 2 indentation in the end of the stick. Then, they used some concrete blocks that had spikes in them and would line up the centering holes on the spike (all on the ground), and one guy would use a cord wrapped around the apricot wood and spin it by hand as another guy used a sharp tool, also held on a piece of cement (subsitute for the tool holder) to hand lathe off the wood down to kind of round. I'm assuming they probably burned in the finger holes and the length way hole with a hot iron as well.

[Brian Kent]

The Duduks look and sound very close to the Egyptian Mizmar. Unlike the Duduk, Mizmar has a flare at the bottom. The Mizmar seems to have a more pinched sound and the Duduk more open and full. I like it. Coincidentally, like your friend Kaira, my sister - Sahra Saeeda - has produced a number of belly dancing CD's and videos, including some Mizmar music. I will write and ask her if she has used the Duduk.

[Vernon Jenewein]

The Mizmar looks very similar to the Armenian Zurna. Here is link to pic of it: http://www.duduk.ca/dudukhtml/zurna.html I believe that there are a lot of the Middle Eastern wind instruments very similar, perhaps played a bit different in those parts.

[Jerry Moriearty]

I've watched it over and over and I'm not sure how he changed the color. I'm wondering if the pile of sawdust is a kind of fuming set up. Maybe he has very strong ammonia under the sawdust? For a while I was questioning if it was saw dust and not a sand kiln......heat hardening the wood. Your guess is as good as mine from the video.

[Vernon Jenewein]

My guess, Jerry, from the video is it's mostly Smoke & Mirrors, aka BS. I think it was that color before he "placed" it in the sawdust, but maybe I am wrong. I am just a novice wood worker and left it up to you folks for your opinions.

[Vernon Jenewein]

One other wonder of curiostiy. On the video in the link (first post) he used Lime. What exactly would this proceedure be used for? Do other "Lime" certain woods?

[Rick Markham]

I'm not sure if it is smoke and mirrors or not. He obviously doesn't want you to know the specifics. I have a suspicion that keeping it outside in the sawdust pile causes the color change, a good sized sawdust pile like that (with water being occasionally added via rain etc) generates a whole lot of heat. It looks almost burnt. I think the brown color after he chemically treats it (CaOH) seems to be a chemical reaction with the "plain oil" he is using. It appears clear, with a hint of yellow, yet turns a rich brown as it is applied. Obviously there is the language barrier, and probably the fact that he isn't going to give everyone on ebay what his trade secrets are.

I think ammonia generated either through the decomposition of the sawdust (a byproduct of the group of bacteria that first breaks down organic material) probably doesn't hurt the "ebonization" process. He also might have added ammonia to the pile too, though I doubt it, he is obviously very frugal with what he has. Farther along the decomposition process (in the third stage) if the organic material is in an anoxic (very low oxygen) environment (Like a big pile of sawdust) the decomposing bacteria produces hydrogen sulfide, which is jet black, I guess there is a possibility that it's hydrogen sulfide gas staining the Duduk (I think that's a slim possibility.)

All of these are just guesses on my part.

[Roger Chandler]

Related to my post a few days ago, I happened to remember the guys name who made the duck calls and uses the vinegar steel wool darkening process..........his name is Aaron Wingert. Here is a link to his thread.......he gets some very pretty results.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ain&highlight=

[Rick Markham]

Related to my post a few days ago, I happened to remember the guys name who made the duck calls and uses the vinegar steel wool darkening process..........his name is Aaron Wingert. Here is a link to his thread.......he gets some very pretty results.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ain&highlight=

If you want to make it absolutely black using the vinegar, steel wool concoction. You really need to add a tannin to it, such as using Quebracho bark extract (used in ebonization of leather) If you want to know more about it I will post some more specifics!