Interested in brass backs?

[Ron Bontz]

Well. I have been talking to a gentleman who works for a tool and die company, but also has his own mill. We were talking about brass backs being made. Obviously small quantities are more expensive. So I was gauging interest in 1/4 x 3/4", 0.032, 0.025, and 0.020 slit bras backs. The tool and die company would really not be interested unless there was a substantial amount of it. If you or someone you know would be interested in something like this let me know. Thanks

[David Weaver]

I'd suspect you need to put up a website, as people are only going to want one or two, and to make the deal worth it, you'd have to have a lot of people wanting one or two.

If they're looking to make large quantities, they're probably not going to be able to swing it being worth their time.

I don't know if wenzloff is still making parts, I heard something about the folder folding up, for lack of a better way to put it, but if he is still offering slotted back and delivering them, then nobody will probably beat his price.

Those of us who like folded backs are probably SOL.

[george wilson]

Do you have your decimals in the wrong place???? Shouldn't it be more like .250,.320 and .200" ?

[David Weaver]

I think he means the slot for plate thickness, with all of the backs being 1/4th thick.

I have an idea, George, you could start offering bent backs that are annealed during the bending process

[george wilson]

I had made a special press for bending saw backs at work. It got warped in use. I have no such press here at home,though if I were serious about making saws,I could make another one. I do have ovens up to 22" long for annealing,or could,of course use a simple torch,or a weed burner. It puts out a BIG flame.

[Ron Bontz]

Yes George, I was referring to the plate/ slot thickness. All the backs would be a little under .25" x .75" due to the tendency of the brass stock tolerance to be a little off. I am not looking to make money here. Just fill my needs as well as a few others. But if the demand was there, down the road I might be willing to invest a few bucks in a small stock of .02,.025, and .032 if the cost was reasonable. I must admit I have enjoyed making these saws. They are functional and hopefully they will be passed down so someone can say, "Yeah, my grandpa made these". It has been one of the more enjoyable and interesting things I have done lately. So far anyway. Sharpening comes next.

[Ron Bontz]

Well I received (2) 1/4" x 3/4" brass backs slotted at .032" from a machinist today. They fit very well and were of course straight. Right now it looks like the cost on the brass backs is around $20.00 a foot. The shortest being approx. 10" and the longest approx. 19"-20". Just for reference, the Wenzloff site had 16" brass backs listed for $20.00. The cost on the brass itself is almost $9.00 a foot. That is of course 1/4" x 3/4" stock and you would have to bevel it yourself. We discussed ways to mill longer sections at once, but it didn't really make sense to build a more elaborate jig if the demand was not there.
That being said I am going to have some stock milled for myself. Slotted to 0.032, 0.025, and 0.020 hopefully. If anyone would like a back or two let me know what quantity,length, and slot width. I will be ordering some brass in 6 foot lengths. Also if you know of a source for less expensive brass stock.. I am all eyes and ears.
BTW. My sharpening attempts so far have been a disaster. But I am working on it. Almost forgot my last two saws I pieced together were a couple of half backs.

[Johnny Kleso]

Check with Ed at Medallion Tool Works he uses solid backs..

[David Weaver]

Well I received (2) 1/4" x 3/4" brass backs slotted at .032" from a machinist today. They fit very well and were of course straight. Right now it looks like the cost on the brass backs is around $20.00 a foot. The shortest being approx. 10" and the longest approx. 19"-20". Just for reference, the Wenzloff site had 16" brass backs listed for $20.00. The cost on the brass itself is almost $9.00 a foot. That is of course 1/4" x 3/4" stock and you would have to bevel it yourself. We discussed ways to mill longer sections at once, but it didn't really make sense to build a more elaborate jig if the demand was not there.
That being said I am going to have some stock milled for myself. Slotted to 0.032, 0.025, and 0.020 hopefully. If anyone would like a back or two let me know what quantity,length, and slot width. I will be ordering some brass in 6 foot lengths. Also if you know of a source for less expensive brass stock.. I am all eyes and ears.
BTW. My sharpening attempts so far have been a disaster. But I am working on it. Almost forgot my last two saws I pieced together were a couple of half backs.

I recall talking to mike and finding out that at least for bent backs, he was ordering brass in huge sheets, and he could sell brass to me (to make planes) at a price cheaper than I could buy it myself. I'd imagine he was also ordering quantity for slotted backs.

I don't think he pays himself a lot on parts (which means that when they're available, they're probably going to be cheaper than we'll find anywhere else and we shouldn't be surprised).

[Ron Bontz]

I recall talking to mike and finding out that at least for bent backs, he was ordering brass in huge sheets, and he could sell brass to me (to make planes) at a price cheaper than I could buy it myself. I'd imagine he was also ordering quantity for slotted backs.

I don't think he pays himself a lot on parts (which means that when they're available, they're probably going to be cheaper than we'll find anywhere else and we shouldn't be surprised).

I have enjoyed the learning process with respect to hand tools this last year or so. But I get the feeling that I have some how offended folks here. This was certainly not the intent. Only to fill an obvious void and perhaps help a few folks out as well. I will refrain from posting here further. Best wishes.

[David Weaver]

I don't think anyone is offended. My point was strictly that I don't think Mike's prices should be used as a calibrator, because I don't think anyone will be able to match them.

If someone is going to make a saw kit and they have to spend $30 on a back instead of $20, I don't see that as being too problematic. When nothing is available, what's the other option?

My point above about volume was that people will tell you "yeah, I want to make 5 saws", but when you make the saw backs available, one in 10 of them will actually show up with money asking to buy. That will make it a nuisance for you to deal with.

Years ago, the same thing happened with quartersawn beech, it was hard to get anywhere if you didn't have access to a local mill that might do a one off for you. I found a guy locally here who sold beech, and gobs of people said "yeah, I need to get some beech to make planes, I want to buy some". When I offered to give the contact information to the guy (who sells beech at half of what I've seen it elsewhere and ships at cost), two people actually bought some. I didn't follow up with anyone else, I figure that it was a case of "sounds like a good thing, I'd like some" until the wallet has to open, and then people scatter. At least the two people who did get stuff were happy with it.

If you have a way to offer backs "off the rack", I think you'll have more luck. If you could put backs, plates and split nuts together, that'd be even better. Just offering brass backs is probably not going to get most people to move because they still need to find other parts. Half or more of the people who would be interested will be first-time buyers of stuff, and they won't take a shot at trying to put together a kit of parts themselves. If you have the parts together and can show that they'll have what they need, then I'd imagine they will, even though it would probably cost upwards of $100 to put together 3 saw nuts, a toothed plate of 1095 and a slotted brass back.

I don't know why you'd quit posting here, though. I don't know if you've gotten a lot of PMs from people who say they'd love to get a slotted back or three (i'd guess not, or we wouldn't be having this exchange), but not many people have shown up in the thread.

[Ron Bontz]

Ah. Obviously I misunderstood you. And yes you are right. Not a lot of interest. I personally have been getting my plates, (pre punched) from a very helpful gentleman in PA. Dominic. The saw nuts and backs are some what problematic. I was hoping for enough interest obviously to make it worth while for a machinist to mill a good size batch saving some money along the way as mentioned earlier. The machinist makes some bucks along the way, and we get some backs. If I could build a few saws down the road, great. If not nothing lost. Better to gauge interest now than to invest a lot of money for not. Take care.

[Mike Allen1010]

Ron,

Thanks for taking the initiative to pursue a source for brass saw backs and for sharing it with those of us here on the Creek. I'm sure everyone here would agree that is one of the best things about the Creek is the opportunity to learn from others about woodworking and hand tool related topics. Judging from the posts here, everyone loves hand tool build related posts!

As David mentioned, there are other sources for saw parts, but as you pointed out and I've experienced myself, those sources aren't always available and no one likes to wait when a saw building project is "calling" them.

Congrats on the two half back saws you've built -- they look great! I've never used a halfback saw and I'm interested to know how you like them and what types of sawing jobs you use them for? Do you use them primarily at the workbench or on a saw bench?

Thanks for posting -- I look forward to more posts from you.

All the best, Mike

[ray hampton]

if someone wants a slot back for another purpose other than a saw back, will the backs be available ?

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I've to second what Dave said. I know from own experience that it is hard to beat the price of $20 per ft of slotted brass spine. This price is nearly the one Pedder and I have to pay for our spines though we order dozens of those. It wouldn't be possible for us to offer spines at the price, Mike did it and Ron does it. So if you intend to make a try on a homemade backsaw, just take the chance that Ron offers. It just doesn't get cheaper.

Klaus