How would you guys make this table top?

[michael case]

Everything Jeff said. As a rule give the customers the choices and the guidance. Your reasonable and most likely so are your customers. They will listen. I wouldn't recommend trying the reasonable approach with an architect though, since they know nothing and there's' nothing they don't know.

[Kenneth Speed]

Unsurprisingly, I'm with the other guys on this one. The miter edged table is a disaster waiting to happen. We're all in agreement on that.

You didn't tell us the style of the table but there might be "wiggle room" to make something close to this work if the table is a non-traditional style. You might want to consider making the table with a gap in the center of the table and then put it in a mitered frame allowing the center gap to handle the wood movement. I think I saw someone doing something like this with live edge pieces in a woodworking magazine recently.

I'd still avoid the mitered frame and advocate breadboard ends.

[Jim Matthews]

Part of the job of a professional is saying no and explaining why ..

Part of the job of a professional is explaining that for slight additional charge, anything is possible.

[George Gyulatyan]

I reiterate what you already know - THIS CAN'T BE DONE WITH SOLID WALNUT - unless your client doesn't mind the open miters. Jamie has said it all.

Mark Singer's Zebra coffee table might be a good source. I believe his miters are designed to open up with seasonal changes as you mention:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...t=coffee+table

[Sean Hughto]

Ask her if she has ever seen a table top like that made out of solid wood. Then explain how wood moves - you can tell her that even breadboard ends will show the movement, but that it is built to allow it. If she wants solid wood, this plan will not work. You could then offer to build it for her, but ask that she sign an acknowledgment that you predict/assure her that the miters will crack open in less than a year.

[keith micinski]

Well I looked at Mark's table and I don't like the floating mitre design. I think if I was going to employ the miters I would want to allow for the movement by making the center section like a panel and leaving that gap all the way around the outside edge between the band and using space balls. This woman doesn't have children and isn't going to use this table as an every day piece. I am less concerned of the gap attracting dirt and debris because of the way she is going to use it. I am going to make a small mock up to show her how wood moves and explain her options. I am starting to want to try to the mitre edge for the challenge of making it work. My current plan is to make the top by glueing the boards together and making a small 1/8th inch deep by 1/8th inch wide gap where every joint between boards are. I think this will make the gap on the outside of the table between the band not noticeable at all. I am going to spline the mitre joint like Mark did and also use screws with elongated holes on the ends. One upside to this project is that the aprons and legs are going to be fine so if this top design doesn't end up working I can always remake the top and use the wood from the failed mitre top design for other projects.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...uvian%20walnut

This was a link within Mark's zebrawood post...not sure you saw it. I like the bridle joints there.

[Rick Thom]

I guess I didn't think about ripping the MDF and veneering each piece individually. I might lean this way. As far as the 4 inch banding opening up I have had pretty good success with a splined miter this big not opening up so I am not to worried about that. I am going to try and talk her out of the Mitre and barring that I am going to try veneering the individual pieces. I can only make my veneer about 3/16 to a 1/4 though because my bandsaw sucks so I try to stay away from veneering right now until I get a better bandsaw. Thanks for all of the help so far.

When finished, stay well below the 1/4" so the veneer doesn't act like solid wood (movement).
Are you going to veneer both top and bottom equally?

[Brian Penning]

Here's an example of using a veneered ply top with the solid maple border. The pics are with the extensions in and then pulled out.

123-2349_IMG.jpg123-2357_IMG.jpg

[Will Blick]

Nice table Brian..... I have a similar project on my list....

>When finished, stay well below the 1/4" so the veneer doesn't act like solid wood (movement).

I think the right thickness of the veneer to assure the glue over powers its desire to move waaay under 1/4".... IIRC, closer to 1/100th. I made this mistake once, and learned the hard way, that what appears thin, is not thin enough to prevent movement. Many good references on this, working from memory, maybe someone else can ring in.

IMO, the ww community makes changes quite slow...the concept of thin veneers for something like this top should be more commonplace, but it's not.... prob. in 50 years it will be :-)

[Chris Padilla]

I veneered some shop-cut walnut veneer (1/16" thick) onto to two pieces of 5/8" MDF (that were glued/sandwiched together so 1 1/4" total thickness) and I only did it to one side. The walnut promptly pulled the flat MDF out of flat along the long length. These were about 12" x 42" pieces, too. I was pretty amazed.

I think 1/16" or less could be considered a veneer (i.e. something that doesn't move) but it depends on the wood species, the substrate it is glued to and the glue used. In my experience, one wants a glue that dries very hard like plastic resin, for example. PVAs (white/yellow) don't dry hard and I believe are unsuitable for veneering although I hear plenty of folks doing it with no issues so YMMV.

[keith micinski]

I agree the best way to go would be to veneer a top. unfortunately I just don't have the right tolls to do that job right now and don't have enough veneering work to justify getting them or trying to make "something work." here is what I have come up with. I made a sample so I can show her what is going on and why we need to account for wood movement. This will actually work and I sort of like the look but I don't see any way to not get food particles and other debris from getting into the gap. I made one side flat and I made a groove in the other side because I think if the grooves ran the length of the field boards it would tie in the expansion gap better.I have set the gap at a 16/th all the ay around and have reinforced the mitre with a 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch piece. I made this sample out of 1 1/2 stock but am considering making the field boards out of 3/4 and making the band out of 1 1/2 or 2 so that appears to be thick with out actually being thick.

[Will Blick]

nice samples Kieth, sure hope your customer appreciates the time n effort you put into her wishes....

just wingin everything in my arsenal at ya.... hoping you can find a solution here...as they say, when there is a will, there is a way!

You ca use picture frame boards as the outside edge, they come in sizes up to 4-5" width, and are often MDF core with a very nice vinyl veneer.... Google Framerica for some examples. That solves the frame issue and provides a nice edge also with no veneering work.... this stuff is very durable, I use it a lot.

So then, the only problem which remains is the gap issue. To solve that, why not go with pre finished veneered ply, cut down to planks, similar to what you have shown above in the pix, except, use hard wood strips at the ends of the ply, and tongue and groove them together as you have in pix, this will give the "plank" look you are pursuing, and now wood movement is reduced to the small 3/4" edging joining the veneered edging. You can even use hardwood of a different type, possibly for an accent, or decorative look. Or, maybe try to match it, that is artistic call... My thought is, wood movement is proportional to its width, and with this approach, you just eliminated 90% of the planks width, now the gap can be 90% less which is prob. very acceptable. With this approach, you don't need any veneering skills or tools.... I have bought pre finished veneered MDF and ply that is truly stunning how beutiful it is, not cheap though, $130 a sheet based on grade and type of veneer, and thickness.... 3/4" would be ideal IMO.

btw, did you get the proper calcs on wood movement for the right size gap? If so, what did you use?

[Sam Murdoch]

This will actually work and I sort of like the look but I don't see any way to not get food particles and other debris from getting into the gap.

If she musty have tight mitered corners - consider a glass top? OR as a just as radical solution - cross cut through the stiles (stiles on the sides and rails on the ends for purpose of this discussion) leaving the miter of the rails/stiles intact. Use those "mitered" ends/rails as breadboard ends. The only thing different - but understandable to everyone who understands wood movement - will be the extra cut line near the ends of the stiles. This would allow you to eliminate all the gaps around the perimeter.

[keith micinski]

I winged the gap because any more then that and it becomes ugly and way to big. A heavy 16th on each side seems like enough of a gap with the reenforced mitre joint but I have no scientific evidence of that other then personal experience. I would like to use a refinished ply except for two things. One is I want to use a very unique highly figured Walnut crotch log for this project. The other is the customer doesn't want a glossy built up finish and I don't like that finish either. I have had good luck using General finishes outdoor oil on my table tops recently. I like it because it gives you a nice matte finish and is easy to maintain in the future with out needing to sand.