Frame Saw Advice

[brian kelly]

I purchased a Frame Saw last year, the big one.
I had read through a book,by Anthony Guidice, promoting the virtues of developing hand tool skills. The author recommended buying some hardwood and crosscutting and ripping through about one hudred cuts to develop the ability to cut straight, accurate lines. Well two or three hundred cuts later I still do a more accurate job with a regular craftsman handsaw. Does anybody have some additional advice on the use of a frame saw ?

[John Meikrantz]

The best advice I would give is to tell you to take the Guidice book with a grain of salt. He has some good info in there, but some is very strongly opinionated, and not necessarily correct, i.e. the sawing section. Bow and frame saws work well for some, but they are not always the best suited for the task at hand. Tage Frid was also a big bowsaw fan, but I don't think he would be quite as "religious" about it as Mr. Guidice. Guidice also gives out some blatant wrong information on saw tooth patterns, saying that rip is really the only way a saw is properly filed. Just mentioning the Guidice book among some galoots gets them all riled up!

Anyway, just my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth!

John

[Bob Smalser]

The author recommended buying some hardwood and crosscutting and ripping through about one hudred cuts to develop the ability to cut straight, accurate lines.

Incomplete advice.

Completely counterproductive if the sawblade isn't tuned to track straight....and none out of the box are that I've found.

Do a search here on saw filing/sharpening for some guidance, then ask if you need further help.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have struggled with the same problems with a bow saw. I tried one after Tage Frid did a seminar at Highland Hardware in Atlanta. I am using Japanese type saws at the moment.

One of the problems with the frame type saws is the teeth. I think you will find that most of those who use these saws have learned to sharpen and set the teeth for better performance. Recently, however, Japanese type blades have become available for frame saws. I have been considering giving a frame saw with the newer style blade a try. These new blades are not cheap though and I have such a long short list

Check out the new blades:

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com...OD&ProdID=6047

[Derek Cohen]

My logic (in the absence of owning a frame saw) says that there is a trade off with a thinner japanese blade over the (I assume) thicker Western blade. While the thinner blade requires less effort to cut, the thinner kerf is more likely to bind as you cut deeper.

As Bob has said, the most important ingredient in saw set up lies in its sharpening. A poorly set saw will be difficult to keep on track, and this applies as much to an expensive Japanese blade as an inexpensive Western blade. It is usually not possible to do much about the sharpness factor of new, induction hardened blades (they are sharp), but frequently these blades arrive with poorly set teeth. It is possible to tune these with a little "stoning" on a diamond stone.

It is only with a tool that can cut straight that you can practice cutting straight.

Regards from Perth

Derek (making a bowsaw this weekend!)

[Mike Holbrook]

Actually I believe the main advantage of many of the modern Japanese saw blades is they do not require one to set teeth or sharpen in order for them to cut well and clear the kerf. I think there are more salient issues in regard to saw blades binding in the kerf than the thickness of the blade. The "western" tooth design has more trouble cleaning the kerf which is alleviated by offsetting the teeth and widening the kerf in relation to the thickness of the blade. The argument can be made that this method wastes wood and makes a needlessly wide kerf.

Some new Japanese blades are thicker at the teeth and narrower at the back, accomplishing the same result as the offset teeth on the "western" blades. A close look at the teeth on Japanese saw blades reveals the relative complexity and increased number of very sharp cutting surfaces compared to western blades.

In the end you buy gear to set teeth and sharpen Western blades, which is not required with the Japanese blades. Japanese saw teeth are usually so hard, impulse hardened, that setting and sharpening is almost impossible. Impulse Hardening hardens the teeth harder than an ordinary file while leaving the rest of the blade with its normal flexability. Japanese blades are manufactured with razor sharp teeth that stay that way for very long periods of time. Since these blades usually have more TPI and as many as 4 cutting angles along the length of their teeth, they tend to leave a smoother surface with less wear and tear on the teeth.


From a reviewer at Highland Hardware:
"The heart and soul of this saw, though, is its Japanese blade. It's impulse hardened, and the tooth profile allows fast, clean cutting in any direction through wood with very little set. In fact, the 12 tpi Turbo-cut blade cuts farther with every stroke than the 5 tpi blade I've carefully refiled and set for my own Continental Frame Saw."

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

I suspect that you have missed my point. The link you provided was for a bowsaw (see pic 1), not a deep frame saw. Here is a frame saw (see pic 2)

A frame saw is designed to resaw timber (see pic 3) and, consequently, is expected to make very deep cuts. A narrow kerf is more likely to bind than a wide kerf. What I am wondering about (the point I was trying to make earlier) is whether Japanese blades, which their narrow kerf (from minimal tooth set) may do better at shallow cuts (such as in dovetails and tenons) but be poorer at the deep cuts involved in resawing. A thicker Western blade with greater set (possible also with LESS teeth to clear the gullets more easily) might be expected to do a better job here.

I would be interested in hearing from those with experience in this area since I plan to build a couple of these saws shortly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Hmm, I did not realize that you were thinking about a deep frame saw. I believe if you check the link you will see that the saw I am referring to is a "Classic 700 Frame Saw with Turbo-cut Blade". Highland Hardware is calling the saw you are referring to a frame saw not a bow saw. Bow saw may be a better or more clear term for such a saw but I frequently see just about any saw with a frame referred to as a frame saw.

I think the original question was concerning hand tool skills with a bow/frame saw not resawing timber. I find this question comes up pretty often with those who read the work of Frid and Guidice. These two authors strongly encouraged new woodworkers to learn to use bow/frame saws. Most of the people I know who have tried to learn to use these saws have been frustrated because they did not know how to sharpen, set and tune this type saw. It can also be difficult to locate good quality equipment for tuning these blades.

I think we are here to discuss methods and techniques with hand tools, apparently we are talking about two different but similar tools. The common element still seems to be saw blades and saw blade design. I believe that improvements have been made in the design and manufacture of saw blades that impact the use of bow/frame saws pretty heavily.

I hesitate to continue calling blades Japanese vs Western as many "Western" manufacturers use "Japanese" type blades in their "western" saws these days. The newer vs classic blades are designed to be used as is then replaced whereas the more classic blades require tuning to be efficient and accurate.

My point for Brian is, the newer blades for bow/frame saws should perform much better without requiring the purchase of additional sharpening, setting tools. A bow/frame saw with this type blade should require less skill to master and cut noticeably quicker.

[Chris M Pyle]

Has anyone else had experience with frame saws, and in particular the highland hardware 700 and 400?

[harry strasil]

I have never read a book by either Guidice or Frid but rather go to reading material from the past, so I have no problems at all with either a framed saw or a bowsaw, as I use each for what they were originally designed for.

[Tony Shea]

Sice we are talking about both these saws in the same post and links to some blades for these bow saws, I am going to throw a question out there.

Does one think that if I built a Frame Saw for resawing, would the blades that highland has listed for their bow saws be a viable option for using in a frame saw? Maybe the the Continental Frame Saw Rip blade with a 5TPI. Blade length is 27.5" long. They don't list the width, which I would think a wider blade would be better for resawing?

Blade Link

[harry strasil]

That blade looks to be about 2 inches wide, it should work well, but you might want to touch it up a bit by giving alternate teeth a little fleam angle. My opinion!

[David Kirtley]

The blade is just shy of 1 1/2 in wide. (I just measured mine)

[Rick Rutten]

What about fasteing hardware? I have a dremel so maybe something like the tutorial mentioned earlier with carriage bolts might be OK. What about something typical to hacksaws only bigger? In the pictures above from Derek that is what it looks like on the bow saw. Can't tell about the frame saw.

Rick

[harry strasil]

Bow saws have the web fastened with pins into the bottoms of the handle, and the tension is obtained by the tension twine or turnbuckle at the top.



Turning Bow Saws have the web attached into devices that can be rotated at the bottoms of the handle, and tension is by the tension twine or turnbuckle at the top.



Frame saws have the web attached at the middle of the end bolsters with a movable attachment that also is the tensioner.