How to make wood pop / Accentuate grain and Chatoyance with Water-Borne Finish

[sheldon pettit]

Also, the Tung Oil I used was from a bottle of Woodcraft Tung Oil I purchased a few months ago when they were having a clearance. Any comments as to the quality of their Tung Oil? Is it polymerized?

LOL, i don't know Alan, i never used it nor most others, I'm personally familiar with Sutherland wells, some from Alnor, and a few polymerized types from Degan oil. I can tell you a good polymerized oil should be as thick as molasses or more. and no other things should be listed on the MSDS as to diluents for either type. that would be your best bet and just query WC tung oil msds ok?

[Chris Hedges]

[QUOTE=sheldon pettit;1928056]i'm needing certain other qualities such as higher/lower hydro peroxide content or unsaturation for increased hydroxyls for combining with other resins or chemicals.
[QUOTE]

http://translate.google.com/#auto|af...or%20chemicals.

LOL!!!

[Alan Lightstone]

[QUOTE=Chris Hedges;1929380][QUOTE=sheldon pettit;1928056]i'm needing certain other qualities such as higher/lower hydro peroxide content or unsaturation for increased hydroxyls for combining with other resins or chemicals.

LOL!!!

איך בין נידינג זיכער אנדערע מידות אַזאַ ווי העכער / נידעריקער כיידראָו פּעראַקסייד צופרידן אָדער ונסאַטוראַטיאָן פֿאַר געוואקסן הידראָקסילס פֿאַר קאַמביינינג מיט אנדערע רעזינז אָדער קעמיקאַלז


LOL. I use that all the time for texting at work. It's always funnier in Yiddish... Swahili has it's moments too.

[Alan Lightstone]

OK. some test samples in.

These have not been rubbed out yet, so there are large glossiness differences between the pieces.

This picture is of two of the boards side-by-side. The Tung Oil sample has gotten considerably darker. The Sample on the right is a pretty close match to the sapele/waterlox control board. It was done by using the same dye combo as the control board, then spraying two coats of super blonde shellac, two coats of waterlox wiped on, two coats of orange shellac, followed by several coats of EM6000 sprayed on.

The sample on the left also got the same dye treatment, followed by two wipe-on coats of Tung Oil, then two spray coats of orange shellac, followed by several coats of EM6000.

Test-Sprayed-Samples-1.jpg
Here are the pieces of wood on the sapele table:
Sprayed-Test-Samples-on-Sapele-Table.jpg
The color match is pretty good with using the Waterlox underneath the EM6000. The shellac coats (mainly there for compatibility, but also to add amber coloration) helped with the color matching.

I'm not so sure the chatoyance is equivalent, though. The piece seems to have less luster with the EM6000 compared to the control. Of course, when rubbed out in about a week, the samples may be very close to the control. Time will tell.

A work in progress...

[sheldon pettit]

SG05-wood refractive studies.bmp

No dyes, no oils, no shellac, no waterlox, no aqueous emulsion finish.

[John Coloccia]

Is that just nitro? That would be my guess.

[sheldon pettit]

Is that just nitro? That would be my guess.

Good guess, but no, 4 hour rock hard varnish behlen's. 5 coats gloss, 1 coat low satin 30°

[Alan Lightstone]

Sprayed? Shaken, not stirred.

[sheldon pettit]

Sprayed? Shaken, not stirred.

sprayed all coats.

[Alan Lightstone]

Ah, to be able to spray combustible finishes...

[Alan Lightstone]

Is it better to spray multiple gloss coats, then rub out to a lower level of gloss or to do as you did and spray all but the last coat gloss and the last semi-gloss?

At least with rubbing varnish or brushed-on coats, most people I've noted have suggested using gloss coats for all then rubbing out to semi-gloss.

[John Coloccia]

It's always best to build with gloss, and then spray semi/satin to get the sheen you want (or rub it out to a flat finish if you think you can do it evenly). The flatteners in the non-gloss finishes completely screw up clarity of the finish. It will look completely dead, and maybe even a bit cloudy compared to building with gloss and flattening as the last step.

I have great success rubbing out a finish to semi/satin on lighter colored woods (alder/maple/etc). Not so much on darker woods. I find it very difficult to get it looking even on dark woods. That said, I rub out my mahogany guitar necks to a satin and with a little care they look OK, but I would have more trouble on a large, flat piece of wood as is more typical for furniture.

[Scott Holmes]

Shaken is fine with me... Proper application technique will eliminate the bubbles.

[sheldon pettit]

Is it better to spray multiple gloss coats, then rub out to a lower level of gloss or to do as you did and spray all but the last coat gloss and the last semi-gloss?

At least with rubbing varnish or brushed-on coats, most people I've noted have suggested using gloss coats for all then rubbing out to semi-gloss.

It's always best to spray anything if you can - and you can!!

John, has the right concept, always spray all your coats with gloss! Reason? every coat of satin or flat you apply has "extra" flatting agents in them, This is to insure that as it dries there will be good upper level [just below the surface] accumulation of the flatting particles to insure even flatting as it "cures" lol or "dries" - just for you Scott, lol. The rest of the flatting agents lay beneath this upper surface, they still are able to refract and scatter the light, but being sub-surface it shows up as haze/milkiness/ a frosty appearance. With each additional coat this worsens the case. To see this one only has to spray a board gloss black and when dry tape half off and spray a clear coat of satin/flat over it, when dry remove the tape/paper, and one the gloss side will look deep and clear with no milkiness at all, the other well...... you'll see


If this is continued for several coats each time you spray [use another board so as to compare] you will again see the finish continues getting more milky. That same color saturation diminish-er FA, when used on natural woods does the same, it may not be as noticeable depending on the lightness or darkness of what your spraying, but it is no less diminished on those than what you see on the black you sprayed. The hardest time i have convincing people of this are those who finish light woods [maple/birch/pine/holly/etc..]

The other thing that has been bought up to me elsewhere is people telling me they have done such and later a customer would call complaining about the finish turning glossy or a higher sheen right under or around the handle areas of doors - One even said he solved the problem by bringing all the drawers and drawers back to his shop and sanding and applying 4-5 coats of satin over them.

My response was that sooner or later the same would happen again because the flatting takes place just below the surface, the coating overlaying the flatting agents is still quite capable of being rubbed up to a higher gloss be it polyester or any lower degree of hard finish, it just takes more time to do so. Again an easy way to prove this is to simply take a fine rubbing or polishing compound on a soft cotton cloth and with your finger apply the compound and rub on softer finishes within 30 seconds, [or less], you'll see the sheen get glossier, on harder ones maybe 2-3 min, on polyester, maybe a little more, but not necessarily. With the right compounds i can rub it up glossier in a minute at most.

I've included 2 micro-photos of this phenomena to show it better, but keep in mind the reason for these initially was to show how blushing formed in a nitro finish, the glossy one shows the blush sharply and the flatted one of course shows all the haze, but you can still distinguish the larger water molecules of the blush from the flatting agents obscuring it. The pics are 200x, darkfield microscope. Don't go into asking me why the blush is in the geometric form that is seen, that's a whole different subject. lol.

Back to spraying coatings for a moment Alan, with the right viscosity coatings, fluid tips and needles and some gun adjustments, you can spray anything you want, well.... within reason and common sense, lol. Due caution of course always!! Last summer, for example, i sprayed over 800 ft of trim for my son outside in the wide open with poly, plus some inlaid floor pieces and other stuff also, all of it turned out very good using a cheap gun and a cheap compressor, of course he lived outside the city limits, but still you can spray what i see you doing without anywhere near the over-spray one would have spraying dozens of square ft at a time, at least consider it as an alternative, a "viable" alternative. WCS, you could call around when you have something coming up to spray to see if any local spray shops may let you use their facilities for an hour or so a day over a several day or less period of time, something i have also done on occasion.

Scott i use an pneumatic drill and stirrer to mix with and if doing much spraying, outside of test samples, i will incorporate a couple of 1/4 inch ball bearings to keep it stirred, not as good as my old devilbiss agitated cup gun, but it does the job , oh and if spraying something large keeping the flatting agent stirred is a must!! If not, by the time you've sprayed a half a cup if your starting and stopping to move things, you will notice a difference in the beginning sheen as to the final sprayed pieces, This is especially true if you stop for several minutes and don't re-stir before starting your spraying again ok? Flatting agents can settle out pretty quick, if you don't believe me fill a jar with satin well stirred and watch for 10 min. or so, then continue to occasionally watch over an hour, tell me what you find.

Ok that's it!!

[Alan Lightstone]

Shaken is fine with me... Proper application technique will eliminate the bubbles.

LOL. I was just using the James Bond line to get over the 10 character limit.