micro bevel on mortise chisels? Is it a yea or a nay?

[James Owen]

Exactly how I do it! Works like a charm....

[Kenneth Speed]

I'm with Jim K, I don't put a micro-bevel on anything on purpose. The bevel on mortising chisels is generally pretty obtuse as the chisel is supplied. Why wound you want to make it even more obtuse?


Ken

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm with Jim K, I don't put a micro-bevel on anything on purpose. The bevel on mortising chisels is generally pretty obtuse as the chisel is supplied. Why wound you want to make it even more obtuse?


Ken

The Narex mortise chisels the original poster has came to me, at least, with a bevel at 25 degrees. Not stout enough for regular chopping. It's good because it gets metal out of the way and allows the chisel to really sink into the wood, but for heavy chopping (and a bit of prying) the cutting edge needs to be more obtuse.

[Kenneth Speed]

Joshua said, "The Narex mortise chisels the original poster has came to me, at least, with a bevel at 25 degrees. Not stout enough for regular chopping. It's good because it gets metal out of the way and allows the chisel to really sink into the wood, but for heavy chopping (and a bit of prying) the cutting edge needs to be more obtuse."

OK, I'm curious now! I'll check the bevel on my mortise chisels and see what it is. The bevel looked strong enough so I just touched them up and used them with the factory bevel. They seem to work pretty well although the edge does take a beating with the heavy chopping and prying that these chisels endure.

I have the extra strong German mortise chisels sold by Traditional Woodworker and I'm pleased with them. They have really huge handles that can take hard pounding and give the user a lot of leverage and the blades are long and straight sided. The length adds leverage and makes it locate the chisel. It seems some people don't like straight sides but I use a chisel narrower than the mortise (3/8" for a 1/2" mortise for example) which allows me some room for error and generally enough to pare the edges clean after the mortise is cut.

I'll readily admit that chopping mortises by hand is NOT my preferred method and if I have more than a couple I'll do it a different way.

OK, I checked the chisels are ground and sharpened at 30 degrees with no micro bevel

Ken

[Ryan Baker]

Those big mortise chisels from Traditional are great -- I really like mine and will be getting some other sizes. I haven't put a micro bevel on mine yet and haven't had any problems chopping into hard maple. I probably will add the micro bevel eventually. But just because those chisels provide a lot of leverage doesn't mean you should be using leverage. Prying with a mortise chisel is just going to break the tip and isn't necessary anyway.

My Narex mortise chisels have a sharper bevel angle. They just feel like they need the micro bevel, whether it really helps or not.

Cutting a mortise with an undersized mortise chisel seems to just completely defeat the purpose of the mortise chisel and add a lot of extra work. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, the only time I've cut a mortise with an undersized chisel is when I'm chopping a really big one like some of the ones in my bench - at that point it was quicker to bore out the waste with a brace and then pare it clean, but I did have decent luck chopping two 1/4" mortises near to each other and then quickly wacking out the middle to get something like a 3/4" mortise.

I certainly can't do a mortise nearly as accurately using an undersized chisel if the two passes intersect.

[Gary Herrmann]

Ray Iles recommends 20 degree primary and a 35 degree secondary bevel on his pig stickers. Works for me.

[Scott Driemel]

Hmmm, so, if I was to paraphrase some of this info, the suggestions are; 1) for light mortising, the 25 deg primary would be fine for most work.(a secondary bevel is optional) 2) for heavier mortising a sharper angle of say 30 or 35 deg is better for support on the blade. (again secondary bevel optional). Hey. again being new to hand mortising, I'm all for just having to have a primary bevel but it's ahrd not to think "secondary" would be even better! Arrrrgh! I guess some trial & error is the way to go and just see what works for me.

[Gary Herrmann]

I guess some trial & error is the way to go and just see what works for me.

And there's the best advice of all.

[Rob Fisher]

Scott, for mortising with a pigsticker style chisel, I would most definetily use a secondary bevel. Shallow primary bevel, about 20 degrees allows the chisel to penetrate deeper into the mortise. A secondary bevel or about 35 provides better edge retention when using a mallet. If it was a single bevel of 35 degrees, the obtuseness of the bevel would make it considerably harder to get the chisel to penetrate as deep as a 20 degree bevel.

[Kenneth Speed]

Ryan Baker wrote, "Those big mortise chisels from Traditional are great -- I really like mine and will be getting some other sizes. I haven't put a micro bevel on mine yet and haven't had any problems chopping into hard maple. I probably will add the micro bevel eventually. But just because those chisels provide a lot of leverage doesn't mean you should be using leverage. Prying with a mortise chisel is just going to break the tip and isn't necessary anyway.

My Narex mortise chisels have a sharper bevel angle. They just feel like they need the micro bevel, whether it really helps or not.

Cutting a mortise with an undersized mortise chisel seems to just completely defeat the purpose of the mortise chisel and add a lot of extra work. Different strokes for different folks I guess."

Well, I find that I'm not generally satisfied with the cheeks of the mortise if I use a 1/2" chisel to do a 1/2" mortice, for example. I can "horse" the joint into alignment but I don't feel good about doing things that way. By using a 3/8" chisel to cut a 1/2" mortise I (theoretically) leave myself a little room to pare the cheeks smooth. I"ll have a bench chisel or two to hand anyway because I use them to outline the mortise.

I'll readily admit chopping out mortises by hand is not my favorite shop activity by a long shot!

My experience is that mortise chisels,quite literally, take a real beating and the edges need to watched closely or they'll become wrecking bars.

Ken

[Kenneth Speed]

This may be old news to many others but Popular Woodworking has an article by Adam Cherubini about hand chisel mortising in their August issue. In it, Mr Cherubini, suggests paring mortises with pigsticker style mortise chisels and seems to suggest a, "rounded bevel" on the edge. I don't think this is the same as a micro-bevel but I can't say how different it is.

I suppose Mr Cherubini's paring method would work after one has defined the mortise with a bench chisel or two. I think the pig sticker type chisel would be unsuited to this technique because they are, I understand, relatively short but that appears to be what he uses. I, obviously, have never used this method so I can't weigh in on it one way or the other. I did find it interesting that the paring method is supposed to leave , " ...cleaner and more uniform..." mortises, the same thing I was trying to accomplish with my admittedly more complex method.


Ken

[James Owen]

This thread has been interesting and amusing to read.

Interesting, because there is a lot of very good and practically useful information in it.

Amusing, because there is a tendency to over-complicate things. But that is only because my experience has been that, in almost all cases, simpler is better. KISS principle, and all of that.....

*****

Chopping mortises is not that difficult - either in concept or in execution. After all, it's nothing more than a specific sized hole in a piece of wood, made to fit a specific sized tenon. Insert Tab A into Slot B.

While there are certainly other ways to approach things, my preference, when I want to do a woodworking operation, is to see how it was done traditionally, largely because it is a method that has been proven over time not only to work, but to work very efficiently, and also because I happen to be a traditionalist and something of a purist, who likes to do things the old-fashioned way.

The same thing applies to tools. What tool was traditionally used, and how was it set up? In the case of mortise chisels, the traditional pig sticker frequently (not always) has a trapezoidal blade, a 20˚ (more or less) primary bevel, and a fairly wide secondary bevel (1/8" more or less) of about 35˚.

Why was it set up this way? Because it was found, by trial and error over many years (in some cases, hundreds of years) to work. The low primary bevel allows deeper penetration, while the higher secondary bevel helps with edge retention. The trapezoidal shape helps control the cut direction, as well as make levering the chips out easier; both contribute to straight mortise walls. The height of the blade contributes to the strength -- both for chopping and levering, and the bolster efficiently transmits the energy from the mallet strike into the blade and edge. The tapered oval handle helps tell you where the blade is, as well as holding the chisel in place while you use it. The rounded top of the handle absorbs mallet blows without splitting. Taken altogether, it is a truly brilliant design, one that accomplishes exactly what it was intended to do, in a most efficient manner.

Is a pig sticker the only way to chop a mortise with a chisel? Of course not, but once you have overcome the learning curve, it is one of the most efficient and accurate ways to chop mortises by hand.

The same approach works just as well for other tools and techniques.

*****

On one hand, I find it very unfortunate that, since the end of WWII and the advent of affordable decent-quality power tools for the average hobbyist woodworker, there has been a huge loss of traditional hand tool information and technique. On the other hand, we are extremely fortunate that people like Roy Underhill, Drew Langsner, John/Jennie Alexander, Peter Follansbee, Adam Cherubini, Chris Schwarz, Larry Williams, Don Weber, Don McConnell, and numerous others, have undertaken to research, re-discover, revive, and pass on the traditional knowledge that was once handed down via the apprentice system.

And, of course, the internet and forums like this one make it very easy to share that information and discuss the details, alternatives, and experiences using those techniques and tools.

*****

Since this is a hobby for most of us, my nickel's worth is that you should chop your mortises in whatever fashion you prefer and that gives you the best results. The same obviously applies to other woodworking operations. But I would suggest that you also at least take a look at the traditional method(s), and see if they might be of use to you.

Cheers! And Happy Woodworking!

[Joe Bailey]

There is a Peter Follansbee video, in which he chops out a mortise whose side wall is a piece of plate glass. (so that the viewer can see inside the mortise as it's being chopped). He properly credits Roy Underhill with the glass concept. Here is a still showing the primary and secondary bevels on his pigsticker.

mortise_grind.jpg

[John Coloccia]

This may be old news to many others but Popular Woodworking has an article by Adam Cherubini about hand chisel mortising in their August issue. In it, Mr Cherubini, suggests paring mortises with pigsticker style mortise chisels and seems to suggest a, "rounded bevel" on the edge. I don't think this is the same as a micro-bevel but I can't say how different it is.

I suppose Mr Cherubini's paring method would work after one has defined the mortise with a bench chisel or two. I think the pig sticker type chisel would be unsuited to this technique because they are, I understand, relatively short but that appears to be what he uses. I, obviously, have never used this method so I can't weigh in on it one way or the other. I did find it interesting that the paring method is supposed to leave , " ...cleaner and more uniform..." mortises, the same thing I was trying to accomplish with my admittedly more complex method.


Ken

I suspect a rounded bevel helps in levering material. With a straight bevel, you will always pivot at the apex of the angle....and on a pig sticker, that's pretty far away. With a round bevel, you have a continuous surface to lever against, potentially making it much easier. I don't know if that's why they used rounded bevels. I've seen enough abused and badly sharpened old tools to know that not everything old timers did was for a good reason, but in this case there's a little advantage to doing it like this.

I do wonder about using an undersized chisel, though. If I wanted to pare my mortises, there's no way I would ever use a chisel to hog out all that material. I would drill out the waste, and then pare it back. I just find that faster than chiseling out waste, and then continuing to chisel the sides. The beauty of a mortise chisel is that it's optimized to rapidly removing the waste while cutting the walls at the same time.