Need tutorial on gas powered generators after the disaster here in MD.

[Don Morris]

Was on a mountain top in NW Virginia in an old school house converted to a guest house when the "Wind storm of the Century" hit. It was owned by a winery who was having a tasting and catered party the next day. Needless to say that didn't happen. We lost power and couldn't flush toilets more than once. Drove back to our home NW of Wash. DC and our neighborhood looked like a war zone. There were several trees down on the property which I could normally handle with my elec. chain saw or my old Bosch recip. saw with 12" pruning blade that does just about as good as the chain saw...but it also is electric. A couple people who had generators at least didn't lose all their food. We didn't lose too much but the running around buying extra coolers, driving 60 miles to find ice, etc. I'm not going through again. No matter what, I'm buying a generator, extra cans for gas, oil, etc. even if I never use them. But I sure would appreciate a tutorial on gas generators. My neighbor got to HD early and got a 5500 total output (with I think around 4 120v outlets) for around $800.00. It took 5 days to get power back. I'm in no hurry. I've also got natural gas to an outdoor grill if that's a possible energy source. I'd be willing to pay up to $2000.00 if you said that is what it would take to get a reliable unit. My wife is a cook and 2 refrigerator/freezers and one dedicated freezer were full and we lost $$$ hundreds worth of food. Insurance won't cover all of that and her time. She's "ticked" enough (was going to use a bad word) to indicate she would pay anything for a generator so that won't happen again. Recommendations please! Motors, brands, outlets 120/220, etc. or are they all alike?

[Ed Hazel]

Not an expert, but first you need to calculate how much power do you need? Do you need to run everything all the time?

2. Do you need to to come on automatically?
3. If you have Natural Gas I would get a natural gas powered generator, no gas to mess with or obtain which can be an issue!

[Ted Calver]

We've lost power for over a week on three occasions...one an ice storm and the others hurricanes. Gas supplies dry up after a few days so gas powered generators are questionable unless you have a way to store lots of gas. I ended up buying a tri-fuel unit from Northern tool that runs on either gasoline, propane or natural gas. It's an 8k unit that will run fans, refrigerators and lights. I haven't tried to run the A/C with it, but think it might not be powerful enough for that. Probably OK for the furnace though. The electrician put a simple switch on the panel that lets me selectively flip the breakers for what needs to run. If I had to do it over, the whole house generators would get a good look. They are cheaper now and 5-10k would set you up with a fuss free system. Incidentally, after buying my unit 6 years ago.....we've not had to use it.

[Jay Jolliffe]

We bought a Honda generator when we were building our house. It's a 6,500 output & it's on wheels....We wanted a good one so we could use it if we lost power. It runs our whole house when power is out.Runs the refrig, well pump, furnace, lights & everything else...Living on an Island it's out more that we'd like. You have to decide what you want to run when power is out. We have a big knife switch that we pull on & that takes us off the main power, then we turn on the generator....You can buy ones that turn on automatically when you loose power but their more costly. Some day maybe.

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

After last storm I am going to get a whole house standby generator. I did a few estimates, for my heat pump ( required more then AC with the same tonnage), and well pump, water heater, refrigerator, lights, sump and sewer pumps, it is about 17-20 KW. My energy source will be tank with LPG, about 150-250 G. Price from $9 to $13K.
I know for sure, it will be as with my snowblower, as soon I get one - no major storms in last 3 years. But after 3 days winter time and two last week - it is more then enough for me and my family.
Ed.

[Keith Outten]

I took a different approach and purchased a Miller Bobcat 250 welder / generator. The generator has an 11,000 watt capacity with both 110 and 220 colts. The problem with generators is that you rarely use them. On the other hand a nice welding machine is always a useful tool
.

[Matt Meiser]

I used a portable for about 10 years. We got ours after an ice storm where our power was out for 3 of a predicted 8 days. Then I used it during the blackout of 2003 and numerous, numerous other outages of anywhere between a few hours and a few days. I broke the rules and had a 30A outlet on the side of my house and a double ended extension cord. It worked well enough for the basics when I was home. It wasn't something my wife could deal with, even if I'd put in a proper transfer switch. Portables need careful storage and regular exercise to keep them fit. I always stored mine full of premium gas treated with Stabil. If we didn't use it I'd transfer that to the cars and put fresh in once a year. I always had good luck with that. I also started it at least in the spring and fall and let it run about 30 minutes with something plugged in to each 120V outlet. When I got mine my shopping criteria consisted of being available RIGHT NOW since the house was already in the upper 40's. I ended up with a B&S powered Generac from Home Depot. It was hard on electronics. I blame it for a failed microwave and 2 failed UPS's before I learned. I probably spent $1000 for the generator and electrical components. If you have easy access to the wiring to your panel installing a proper transfer switch is pretty darn easy. Mine is in a finished wall.

This spring we finally broke down and installed a natural gas standby that can power about 3/4 of our house including our heat pump. Now I just need to glance at the indoor display when it exercises itself every Monday and make sure it doesn't report trouble. Once a year I need to change the oil, spark plug, and air filter which looks like about a 20 minute job. If I'm not home, it will just start and transfer, then transfer back, cool, and shut itself down when the power comes back. Its supposed to be electronics-safe. I probably spent about $6500 for the generator, electrical components, and natural gas plumbing and I did all the work except the latter with some help from a friend on the electrical. We did one at my parents' house as well and they spent about the same paying their HVAC guy to do the gas (an easy run since the unit went 10' from their meter) and my friend to do all the work except one partial Saturday of my time where we hauled my tractor over to clear the "site," set the unit, and make all the final electrical connections.

We've had regular outages the whole time we've lived here. Since I spent the $$$$ on the standby, we've had a 9s outage and a 15s outage. We didn't even lose power the day I took the picture of a tornado from my deck. All the run time on the unit is exercise and testing other than about 30s for that 15s outage since it starts at 10s. I don't even think it had transferred when the power came back because I didn't hear the snap of the transfer switch in the basement. My parent's haven't lost power once. Figures.

[Tony De Masi]

To add what others have said I would also check with your power companies. I got my standby generator done through mine and paid for it over two years with no interest. Was akin to a small car payment for the two year period. They sent out someone who went over my entire house and panel box and we decided what I really wanted the generator to power. Once I signed the contract they did all the work. Set the generator, ran all the electric, and provided new panel box for the generator. The only other out of pocket expense was digging the line from my 500 gallon propane tank to the generator. My propane provider hooked up the line on each end, but there was no cost to me for that. Was it expensive? A relative term really. Have I used it? Yes. Did I need it for this last storm that blew through on Friday? No. We were very lucky.

[Don Morris]

The more I read, the more I'm inclined to put in something like one of the small fixed Generac units next to my natural gas outlet to my gas grill. I'm not quite ready to spring for a whole house unit yet, but something that will run the refrigerator/freezer units, during a summer outage and maybe handle them plus some sort of small space heater during a winter catastrophe, like the 4' perfect storm we had 2 yrs ago. I'd have to store a portable in a garage, and if it were a winter problem with a lot of snow, pull it out (front facing garage), get it around the back to an area where it would be logical to run it...in other words a big time PITA. Does that sound right? Thanks for the good info people.

[Myk Rian]

I have a 4400 watt unit that powers our Tri-level just fine.
If it's during a heat wave, we just don't run the AC.
Otherwise, we watch TV, use the I-net, lights, water pump, fridge, furnace.
Haven't overloaded it yet, except for one year I tried to use the table saw.

[Tom Hartranft]

Recommendations please! Motors, brands, outlets 120/220, etc. or are they all alike?

Ref your question ... If you go with a whole house or partial whole house generator, then the installed generator + transfer switch features will be much the same from one vendor to another.

However, first thing to consider is what is/are your objectives. For me, it was to ensure power to my 120 v basement sump pumps. A power outage during a monster rain storm would lead to a flooded basement for me. Battery and house water system backup sump pumps don't have enough flow capacity for what comes into my sump pit during a storm deluge. So, I decided on a generator to ensure power to my two electrical pumps (one pump is main; other is backup). Next decision was to buy a portable genset or go with an installed generator + transfer switch. For me, I wanted 24/7 'turn on' capability day/night/out-of-town. So, a less costly portable genset wasn't a solution. So, decision was to go for an installed generator + automatic transfer switch hardwired into a subpanel adjacent to my 200 amp home electrical service panel. Next decision was ... 100% whole house or something less. Only needed to cover ~15-20 amps for the sump pumps, but since the only way to get 24/7 'turn on' capability was to go with a generator + transfer switch, I looked at partial versus whole house system. For me a whole house system would require 15+ kW generator. After some discussion with my local electrician I opted for an 8.5 kW Winco home generator that came with a specific automatic transfer switch. This size generator and a new subpanel in my garage that it powers gives me emergency power for most everything in my house including fan to blow heat from my gas fired furnace. Only things it doesn't power are the electric stove/oven, electric dryer, and AC ... for about 60% the cost of a true whole house generator on the order of 15+ kW. Last decision was where to locate the generator and what fuel to use ... I opted for natural gas plumbed from the incoming gas pipe to my house (gas hot water and gas-fired furnace for winter heat). Decided on placing the generator in my wife's nice flower bed because it was the only location real close to the incoming gas pipe/meter to the house. She wasn't a fan of that, but ... neither does she want a flooded basement. After three years, she's 'ok' with its placement.

My electrician handled Winco generators so that's the brand I opted for. He installed it and sub'd out to a local plumber to install a gas line to the generator. My electrician did all of the wiring. The only thing I did to cut cost a little was to put in my own pad for the generator to sit on. Total cost in June 2009 was about $7,000. The unit does a self test start followed by a 15 minute engine run every two weeks. I change the oil, oil filter, 2 spark plugs, and air filter once a year. Haven't had an extended electrical power outage in those three years, but have had a lot of nuisance 5-10 second outages when our local electric company resets its transformers ... about every 2 months or in the middle of a T-storm. My generator transfer switch is programmed to signal the generator engine to start after a 5 second outage is detected and for the transfer switch to go to 'back up generator power' 10 seconds after the engine stabalizes ... so, these nuisance power outages cause my generator B&S engine to come on too ... even though the grid power comes back on about the same time that the generator engine fires up. Since the grid power comes back on in less than 10 seconds from original power outage, the transfer switch does not transfer and the engine is programmed to run for 10 minutes after grid power is sensed before automatically shutting down. According to my electrician, there is nothing I can do to reprogram the transfer switch to delay 'start up' signal to the B&S engine to say ... 15 seconds. These nuisance start ups have been the only irritant to me so far with my generator system; I do sleep well in a storm and am comfortable having the generator system in place when out of town.

Hope I've given you some food for thought. Have added some photos to help you see the size/type of components used in a whole/partial house system. This is my 8.5 kW system.

Tom

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Two pics of the generator set in wife's flower bed. The blocks to the left of the generator in 1st picture block the hot exhaust air from the B&S engine from killing wife's adjacent flowers during bi-weekly test runs. Of course, if the generator ever runs for a day or more, her adjacent flowers are toast ... haven't really said it that way to her.





Pic of the transfer switch mounted on outside wall to left of power meter ... main circuit panel behind power meter in garage; new generator subpanel behind transfer switch in garage (see last photo below). Note how transfer switch also serves as wife's leaning abutment for her mops ... it's a woman thing. The little wall box between transfer switch and power meter is my phone box junction to the house.



Lastly, here is a photo inside the garage showing the main house circuit panel (left) and the new generator subpanel (right)

[Ole Anderson]

I have a 3500 watt, 15 year old genset from Grainger, a "medium duty". Noisy as all get-out and only runs for 3 hours on a fillup. I hate it, but it has been used a number of times. We were out of town during the BIG blackout so it didn't get used then. Our last big one lasted 30 hours. For that one I drove 5 minutes to get my RV out of storage and used its 7 kw genset connected to the RV 75 gallon gas tank. Nice and quiet. But the RV is in FL from Nov to May so a winter ice storm must be handled by the old noisy one. I have a 240 volt plug in the garage that goes to a 20 amp service used in my shop. I back feed my panel from that with a wire that has 2 male plugs. I mark my panel to turn off all other 240 volt uses, the (A/C, lawn pump and the range.) Also unneeded 15 and 20 amp uses are turned off with, and most importantly, the main breaker so you don't feed the whole neighborhood, and electrocute the lineman trying to fix the wires.

I am just starting to look at a natural gas auto backup genset big enough to also run the A/C in the summer. I see HD has a 17 kw Generac for about $3800. I would have no problem with a self install as I wired my house with a 200 amp panel 37 years ago and have done a fair amount of wiring since then. A friend had one put in and the gas company had to install a MUCH larger meter, but was able to use the existing gas main from the street. I suppose an electrical permit would be in order.

By the way, to properly size a genset, you need to know the start requirements of your bigger motors. You may be able to run a larger motor, but your genset may very well not be able to start that motor. This would apply to a larger well pump as well as your A/C compressor.

[Don Morris]

Thanks people! Wonderful help. We got power after 5 days of living in the basement where it was cool enough to sleep. Never again. A fixed unit somehow, maybe not a whole house, but big enough to power the critical stuff plus at least some fans in the summer and the critical stuff plus a space heater in the winter. Automatic on/off, self test, all that of course. Will buy something to do what we want plus a little more just to be safe. I'm getting too old for this s__. I'm not going to save my money for my kids. One was vacationing in the Orient, the other in Key West. Gonna put my "tool toys" list on hold for a couple years in favor of a fixed LP/NG standby generator. My new car next year may be next next next year. I've got over 100,000 on a RAV4 4cyl. The only feature I miss is the extra power of a 6cyl when passing long trailers on the HWY or when you need to get around someone, or that extra umphs occasionally. Though it seems the longer I wait, the better the gas milage the newer cars coming out are advertising. Maybe it's good I wait. Again, Thanks to all for taking the time to respond.

Don M

[Matt Meiser]

I am just starting to look at a natural gas auto backup genset big enough to also run the A/C in the summer. I see HD has a 17 kw Generac for about $3800. I would have no problem with a self install as I wired my house with a 200 amp panel 37 years ago and have done a fair amount of wiring since then. A friend had one put in and the gas company had to install a MUCH larger meter, but was able to use the existing gas main from the street. I suppose an electrical permit would be in order.

It would be worth joining Costco just to buy a generator. The one we got is a 12KW and comes with a 100A transfer switch for about $2500. We installed a 100A breaker in the main panel, fed the transfer switch from that, then fed a new panel from the transfer switch. The circuits to be on emergency power got moved to the new panel.

We have the biggest meter that Michigan Gas Utilities installs at residences. But their calculation takes into account the furnace in their shop. My shop isn't powered when the gen is running. Same deal at my parents house and their furnace is 2x the BTU's of ours. Our meter was sized when they ran gas down our road 2 years ago. Theirs was existing and like your friend, MGU just upgraded the meter. As I understand, the main is something like 60PSI so the small line they run from the street has a lot more capacity than the same size line at 7" W.C. that runs in your house.

[Chuck Wintle]

Was on a mountain top in NW Virginia in an old school house converted to a guest house when the "Wind storm of the Century" hit. It was owned by a winery who was having a tasting and catered party the next day. Needless to say that didn't happen. We lost power and couldn't flush toilets more than once. Drove back to our home NW of Wash. DC and our neighborhood looked like a war zone. There were several trees down on the property which I could normally handle with my elec. chain saw or my old Bosch recip. saw with 12" pruning blade that does just about as good as the chain saw...but it also is electric. A couple people who had generators at least didn't lose all their food. We didn't lose too much but the running around buying extra coolers, driving 60 miles to find ice, etc. I'm not going through again. No matter what, I'm buying a generator, extra cans for gas, oil, etc. even if I never use them. But I sure would appreciate a tutorial on gas generators. My neighbor got to HD early and got a 5500 total output (with I think around 4 120v outlets) for around $800.00. It took 5 days to get power back. I'm in no hurry. I've also got natural gas to an outdoor grill if that's a possible energy source. I'd be willing to pay up to $2000.00 if you said that is what it would take to get a reliable unit. My wife is a cook and 2 refrigerator/freezers and one dedicated freezer were full and we lost $$$ hundreds worth of food. Insurance won't cover all of that and her time. She's "ticked" enough (was going to use a bad word) to indicate she would pay anything for a generator so that won't happen again. Recommendations please! Motors, brands, outlets 120/220, etc. or are they all alike?

if you decide to go with a "small" unit, under 10000 watts, then try to find one that runs very quietly. also to be safe you might want to think about a safe way to transfer the power from the generator, probably an electrician can advise on this. You need this to cut the connection to the main lines so you aren't trying to power the entire neighborhood. These little units are very temporary and the motor runs hard to keep it going so have extra oil, gas and spare plugs on hand.