need some direction going into CNC

[Jack Wilson]

I am thinking of getting into CNC. I have "guaranteed" work for well past the forseeable future... no, really! What I am looking for is a machine that will handle 4' x 8' sheets, cutting into cabinet pcs. holes drilled for pegs, slots routed for I don't know what, but that's ok, etc. I want auto tool changer and good vacuum on the table. While I know very little about all this, I do have a budget. I am looking for a used, in VGC CNC that I can do 50-500 sheet production runs with, for around $10,000. Maybe a little more. How close to reality is that? Any suggestions on brand, or model numbers? Also, I have been told that I want spindles and not routers, so, ok I don't really know myself but I'll go with that.

Thank you,
Jack

[Keith Outten]

Jack,

I not an expert but based on what I have seen here over the years an ATC can cost more than a CNC Router in many cases.
Your price seems reasonable for a used machine that is in good shape without a tool changer or vacuum system. You may have to shop for awhile but there seems to be plenty of used ShopBots in your price range these days.

When I was shopping for my first machine a new spindle was about ten times the cost of a router motor.

[Scott Shepherd]

Hello Jack, good luck with your journey into CNC! I agree with Keith. I think your budget for a used machine with a tool changer is way too low. One thing you should consider is the speed. It might be great to get a machine for $10,000, but if it's fairly slow, you'll burn a lot of time on those peg holes (I've done a fair amount of those). My personal opinion is the speed will pay for itself. While you might blow your budget out the water getting a faster machine, you'll also get the parts done in 1/2 the time, so it'll be money very well spent.

I think I've said it about a zillion times now. A CNC router can easily pay for itself with 1 job. Those jobs are fantasy, they are very real. So if the machine can pay for itself in 1 job, then my advice is to get the fastest, highest quality you can get, knowing it's going to pay for itself.

It'll make you a LOT more profitable in the future. Just my two cents.

[Bob Reda]

If you are going to do mostly cabinets I would forgo the tool changer, you would probably be only using end mills or straight bits. But I would look into a drill head to do the holes, that would require a second z axis. As far as the vacuum, if you can find ultra light mdf and a couple fein vacuums that would work. A whole bunch of info on vacuum systems. If you decide and go this route I think you can get started in your price range and can eventually move up to the 'extras' in the future.

Bob

[Mick A Martin]

Jack,

I agree with all the above comments your price range seems low if you want a used ATC. Buy your second machine the first time, if you buy a cheap low speed machine now you will end up replacing it later. Since you intend in doing production work I would look for a machine with a steel welded frame and a large spindle ..... you would more than lightly have to go 3 phase.

[Richard Coers]

With that kind of budget, and those higher production runs, you should just order parts. Lots of companies out there that will ship direct to your door at a set cost. Someone new to CNC and it's software, with a used machine, may not be able to make good production for 3 or 4 months. There is nothing more stressful than having projects to get out, with a CNC collecting dust, while you wait for parts, learn the software, understand what bits to use, learn speeds and feeds, and countless calls from a customer. Order parts, markup the cost, and make money.

[Ross Moshinsky]

$10,000 you won't be able to get much. You can barely build a 4x8 CNC for $10,000 when you figure in the cost of software, dust collection, spindle, bits, ect. You can get an old ShopBot for less than $10,000 and that includes software but typically they won't have a spindle, dust collection and it's typically the older slower model which is not really designed for crazy high production.

I agree with Richard. Hunt around and find someone who will do the work for you. You'll probably end up making more money in the long term, especially if you can find someone locally to run the job so you don't have to pay shipping. Maybe in a year or so you can use the profits to buy your own machine. You might find that farming out 70% of the work and doing 30% of the work in house is actually more profitable so you can buy a less expensive machine. You might also find that spending $30-50,000 on a good industrial machine might make you a lot more dough.

[Jack Wilson]

Thanks for the advice, everyone seems to be on the same page so I guess thats pretty solid. I do wonder what you all mean when you talk about slower machine/faster machine... are you talking about spindle speed? Regardless, what ever you are refering to, are there numbers to go by? Something more than just fast and slow, like 18,000 rpm, or X number of feet a minute or something more tangible?

Thanks,
Jack

[Jerome Stanek]

When we talk slower and faster machines we are talking the speed in inches per minute. Also there is the time involved with loading and unloading the table. It takes me longer to load and unload and clean the table for the next piece than it dose to cut some of my parts. If your parts are heave you may need a vacuum lifter and will need a good air compressor a fork lift for loading and unloading a truck. There are other expenses that will have to be addressed. For a larger CNC you will need 3 phase power also.

[Gary Campbell]

Jack...
You may have an even harder decision ahead of you than trying to find an appropriate machine. Finding the software that can accomodate your design and cutting and meet a low budget. You say production runs of 50 to 500 sheets. 50 sheets per day, week or month? Each will impact your budget significantly different. Most of the full featured suites that put out good code are north of $5K with the really good ones being over $20K. There are others under $500 that will allow you to cut well, but offer little design flexibility. eCabinets is free, but like all of the full featured suites, has a steep learning curve and only outputs to Thermwood or ShopBot CNC brands.

Many of the lesser featured (powered) machines will only cut at 120 ipm and rapid at sub 400 ipm. Most of these have a motion system that is not capable of sustained operation over a long period of time. Most only use a single cutting tool. These machines will process 4 to 10 sheets per day using full or blind dado and linebore geometries. They also may require operator attention for bit changing, etc. on a regular basis. Your budget appears to be adequate for this level of machine, but without training, software, dust collection, shop wiring or vacuum hold down, which I consider to be neccesary for sheetgoods cutting.

IF you are entering this as a commercial venture, or expanding an existing one, I would recommend as a minimum that you search out a machine that will be capable of the following: Cutting speeds up to 400 ipm. Rapid speeds to at least 1200 ipm. Includes multiple tool heads or an ATC. A bare minimum of 4hp spindle cutting head or 5hp with the ATC. 60" width or 120" length if needed for your raw materials. This level of machine will process 20 to 50 sheets per day. Will require operator input for load/unload operations only. In a small shop, this will allow the operator to complete other operation while CNC is cutting. This level of machine is $35K and up, but if you have the work, will pay for itself much faster than a sub $10K machine. There are some bargains in used out on the web. MAKE SURE THAT YOU CAN SEE IT RUN BEFORE YOU BUY USED! Remember that you will still need training, software, dust collection, shop wiring and vacuum hold down, which I consider to be neccesary for sheetgoods cutting. With some sales (read as used) you may not have access to the support, training, service and software required to both get you up and running and keep you there. Owning a $10K+ boat anchor is not fun!

Search out the various CNC user groups on the web looking to find similar sized shops that have moved up to CNC. You may have to travel a bit to find one willing to enlighten you. Most CNC mfgr's have a list of shops that use their brand of machine that are willing to do a demo for you and explain what their process is. Most of these demo sites do not charge if done on their schedule. Many times you can spend time on the phone with a current user and he/she will get you pointed in the right direction.

You must also budget time. You will need time to learn your machine and its control software, your design software and how to efficiently tie the two together. Depending on your past experience with CAD, graphics, CAM and CNC in general I would suggest you allow 6 months to a year to gain profficiency with the "system". If you are inexperienced, do not expect to get a software/machine combo up and running well in your shop in a short time unless you wish to pay for extensive onsite training.

Please understand that I am not coming from an impartial position. (Note signature lower left) Along with others from ShopBot, I travel the country training operators, maintaining, and upgrading our machines to increase their production ablities, in both small shops and in huge manufacturing facilities. I am brand loyal, but no matter which brand you consider, your hurdles will be the same.

[Mike Heidrick]

I think you would be best served by taking some training before jumping into this.

[Jack Wilson]

Well, with all this advice, I am trying hard to see what I CAN get for $15,000, going higher really isn't an option right now. Buying my 2nd machine first is a great idea, but just not practical at this time. IF, I could pay off a $15,000 machine in a year, then maybe I could convince my business partner/wife that a more expensive machine with more power and features is more of a money maker. It wouldn't look like I was just wanting a new toy, but I would have some clout behind that suggestion, and a far better chance of moving in that direction. As it stands now, this is a HUGE expense that is creating some ruffled feathers, or turbulent waves more likely.

[Jim Underwood]

I should think that with the proper amount of due diligence, that you could get a decent machine for that amount of money. The guy across the street from bought, at auction, a used 4x8 MasterCAM with vacuum pump, with coolant system, with dust collector, and one toolbody.... for the grand total of $500.

Ok. So that was a steal... but still..... with as many cabinet shops and woodworking shops that went under, and the economy this bad, you should be able to find a decent used machine for a good price.

I'm just sayin...
And these machines should pay for themselves if you get the right kind of work.

[james mcgrew]

the average mid size kitchen can need 15-25 sheets, a run of 50 in a day will need a couple or three employes for material handleing on load and off, unless you consider on and offload with a mechanical system, runs of 50 -500 (and over how much time) is unrealistic at 15.000.00 without some pretty good experience in purchasing older "BIG iron" just the movement and setup will eat this buget,,

The IWF sho in atlanta in august will bring together cnc manufacturers software, developers, wood suppliers, hardware and everything else remotely associated with the woodworking and several production industry's. i am sure Gary will be there, Kieth outten will and many others, i hope you will come just plan on a minimum of two days and better at three or four on your first time, if you spent a small portion of your budget on using this as a an education in cnc, then in a few months after replenishing the cost of the trip a well informed decision will lead to (depending on your commitment) a great cnc use and experience, on that note i have the 2009 CAMaster x3 i will be around the booth helping new owners feel free to stop in !!

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I have "guaranteed" work for well past the forseeable future... no, really!

Guaranteed at what price? And what's the schedule? Can you take as long as you want, or are there deadlines? Do you have signed contracts? If not, then you don't have guaranteed work, imo.

As Jim said, 500 sheet production runs is big time. If there's a lot of drilling involved, you can be in for some long cycle times with a lower end machine.

Without knowing the specifics of what you'll be doing, it's tough to make recommendations, but I'd say $10,000 doesn't buy you anything that you're looking for. You're really looking at $20,000 minimum, unless you

A good vacuum system is between $5000-$10000.
I good ATC spindle with toolholders and tooling is $5000-$10000
I consider a fast machine one that can process a 4x8 sheet in 3-5 minutes. 1000ipm+ cutting feedrates.
A slow machine can take 10 minutes or more just to drill the holes.

It really comes down to how fast you need to turn out parts. If you need to do 20-30 sheets a day, then a $20,000-$25,000 machine will probably suffice. If you need 50 or more sheets/day, then I'd be looking in the $100,000 and up range. While a $100,000 machine might seem like a lot, the labor to run it might be 1/3 of what it costs to run a cheap machine on a per part basis, due to the high speeds.