Sawstop, Which Version Industrial or Professional

[Karl Fife]

I suspect I'm wrong and Dave Malickly is right. Most likely the tech on the phone gave me bad info.
I'm driving out to my Chicago area dealer this afternoon. I'll grab a tape and measure it myself.

For reference, the Delta Unisaw has 12" of infeed. If Steve Kohn (or someone else) wants to measure their PM66, it would be an interesting comparison. The PM66 and Unisaw are *literally* the saws by which all others are measured.

[Daniel Shnitka]

ICS=Industrial Cabinet Saw, LIS=Life is short, POO=Pride of Ownership

[Steve Kohn]

All measurements were made with the blade fully extended.
From front tooth to front edge is 12 3/16 inches.
From back tooth to back edge of top is 6 5/8 inches.
Overall length of the top is 28 1/8 inches.

[Karl Fife]

So it turns out Dave Malickly is right, and the web site is right. The tech on the phone gave me bad info.
I drove out to a dealer today and measured it myself.

So that means the ICS has an extra 3/4" of infeed support, not two and change as I'd suggested. That's a step in the right direction, but it's no 2+". The ICS is fully 1" less than the old Unisaw at 12", and 2-1/2 less than the new Unisaw (which shows 13 1/2 inches in front of saw at max depth). Thanks to Steve, we now know that the PM66 has a smidgen more than the old Unisaw. Good to know. I suspected this 'migration' of blades forward may have something to do with the mechanics of riving knives, but the new Unisaw disproves that.

Other noteworthy observations.

1. Holy crap the ICS is big. It makes the PCS look small. Let me rephrase that. It makes that PCS look small in the same way that Godzilla's younger brother looks small. The size and mass of the ICS are more enticing than I expected.

2. T-Glide fences are DIFFERENT between the two saws. Both are LONGER than their respective tables, but the ICS T-Glide fence is longer still, overhanging the deeper table by about 7" (IIRC). The PCS T-Glide is overhangs the table, but only by about 4" (IIRC). I don't understand the benefit of having so much extra lenght PAST the end of the blade (and table). Can anyone explain the rationale for this? One downside is obvious, which is that if you have an ICS, butting up against a walkway, the fence will be extending considerably into that space. This "fence overhang" can be seen on many non-Sawstop saws too, but I have always assumed it was about an "ideal" fench length which happened to be longer than many tables. The sawstop observation suggests longer is better, and even longer is even better (even when it's behind the blade). For fun, I took the fence from the PCS, and put it on the ICS, and it looked more appropriate, extending maybe 3 inches past the end of the table.

3. The ICS mobile base is precisely infinity times better than the (excellent) base for the PCS. If you buy a PCS, buy the ICS mobile base.

4. the PCS comes with a nifty knife/fence holder on the side of the frame. No such holder is found on the ICS. No doubt this is because the only place to put it would be on the metal door.

5. The PCS was fitted with the SS sliding table accessory. When it's attached you can no longer swing open the motor cover because it bumps into the leg. Maybe it's still removable even though it won't swing. The latch for the motor cover door on the PCS is cheesy in my opinion. You press on the plastic shell until it deforms enough that its molded 'catch' flexes clear of the metal cabinet.

[Karl Fife]

So it turns out Dave Malickly is right, and the web site is right. The tech on the phone gave me bad info.
I drove out to a dealer today and measured it myself.

So that means the ICS has an extra 3/4" of infeed support over the PCS, not 2.25" as I'd suggested. That's a step in the right direction, but less than I'd hoped for. By comparison, the ICS is fully 1" less than the old Unisaw (at 12"), and 2-1/2 less than the new Unisaw (which the web site shows at 13 1/2 inches in front of saw at max depth). Thanks to Steve, we now know that the PM66 has a smidgen more than the old Unisaw.

Other noteworthy observations when I saw them side-by-side.

1. Holy crap the ICS is big. It makes the PCS look small. Let me rephrase that. It makes that PCS look small in the same way that Godzilla's younger brother looks small. The size and mass of the ICS was far more enticing than I expected it to be. Damn my lizard brain, cro-magnon instincts.

2. The "same" T-Glide fences on the two saws are actually DIFFERENT (pictured). Both are LONGER than their respective tables, but the ICS T-Glide fence is even longer still, at 42.5" measured usable fence length. It overhangs the deeper 30" ICS table by about 8 1/2". The PCS's shorter T-Glide (about 35" usable fence length) overhangs its 27" table too, but only by about 4". Just for fun, I took the fence from the PCS, and put it on the ICS, and thought it looked more appropriate, extending an inch or two past the end of the table.

IMG_20151226_140750 (Large).jpg

I don't understand the benefit of having so much extra lenght PAST the end of the blade. Can anyone explain the rationale for this? The downside for me is that my saw will butt up against a walkway, thus the fence will be extending considerably into that space. I notice that this "fence overhang" can be seen on many non-Sawstop saws too, but I have always assumed that saw fences were an "ideal" length which happened to be longer than many of the tables they found themselves on. The sawstop observation suggests longer is better, and even longer is even better (even when it's behind the blade).

3. The ICS mobile base is precisely infinity times better than the (excellent) base for the PCS. If you buy a PCS, buy the ICS mobile base. Don't even think about it.

4. The PCS comes with a nifty knife/fence holder on the side of the frame. No such holder is found on the ICS. No doubt this is because the only place to put it would be on the swinging metal door.

5. The PCS was fitted with the SawStop sliding table. When the sliding table is attached you can no longer swing open the plastic motor cover because it bumps into the leg. I would hope it's "removable" somehow (without removing the sliding table) even though it won't swing open. The latch for the plastic motor cover on the PCS is a bit cheesy in my opinion. You press on the plastic shell until it deforms enough that its molded 'catch' flexes clear of the metal cabinet.

If anyone wants to talk about fence lenght, I'd appreciate it. I kinda like the idea of the PCS fence on the ICS saw.

[David Malicky]

Thanks for measuring those! That's interesting that even the ICS is shorter than other big saws.

The longer fence helps in a long rip, to keep the end of the cut a little straighter, esp when feeding completely past the blade. Ideally the fence would extend even further (like a jointer bed), but that's usually impractical. It also helps for a long workpiece that has concave contact against the fence (using a tablesaw like a jointer), so the workpiece keeps moving in a straight line. But a longer fence could always be attached to a shorter one.

An extended outfeed table is really helpful, if you have room. After that's added, the longer ICS fence won't stick out at all.

[Karl Fife]

Thanks Dave. Well described. I totally get it.

In my case I'll end up with a fold-down outfeed irrespective of which saw I buy. The larger ICS table is attractive in that respect, because it would have more support prior to 'needing' to lift the table, thus offering some safety. OTOH, some fold-down outfeed table designs are clever in that they are two-part, offering some support between the end of the cast iron, and the beginning of the hinge point. An outfeed like that on the PCS accomplishes the same thing.

Thanks for the good explanation!

[David Kumm]

Actually a short fence was the standard for many years in many countries with the fence just extending past the front teeth. I still put an add one extrusion on my saws so I can pull the fence forward for a long rip. I prefer the support in front rather than in back on a long rip. I only extend the fence back when ripping short stock with a grripper.DSCN2890.jpgDSCN2144.jpgDSCN2778.jpg Last is stock Wadkin short fence, blue one is modified Whitney. Dave

[David Malicky]

Karl, Glad it was helpful! Maybe a PCS-length fence with a longer add-on/overlay-fence would give the most accuracy in the smallest space. Yes, the two-part outfeed tables are clever.

David, My understanding is that the very short fences prioritize safety (especially when there isn't a riving knife), since the workpiece cannot be pinched. Still, I'm not seeing how they would be best for straightness of cut. Also, the Wadkin is a sliding table saw -- I think short fences are normal for those because the slide is the guide.

[David Kumm]

The old fixed table saws used the short fence as well. Idea is to push straight until the front teeth are cleared and then move the stock to the right to clear the blade. Old saws ran 16-18" blades so there is lots of distance to the back teeth. Takes some getting used to but I have both types and find the fence extended towards the front and stopping just after the teeth is what I prefer unless running short stock. If you read posts on old machine forums the fence length argument is second only to the bandsaw tension fights. Dave

[David Malicky]

Thanks, Dave, that's interesting history. So, how do you keep the cut straight near the end of a long rip? Just experience and skill?

[David Kumm]

Good wood helps a lot. Anything questionable goes to the bandsaw but I also compromise and will move the 44" extrusion so it is just behind the blade and since the blade is large, there is still 12-18" of fence after the front teeth. Dave

[Charles P. Wright]

3. The ICS mobile base is precisely infinity times better than the (excellent) base for the PCS. If you buy a PCS, buy the ICS mobile base. Don't even think about it.

I've got the ICS base on a PCS and am super happy with it. The PCS in the store had a PCS mobile base and it wasn't great for moving it straight front and back. The ICS mobile base can go straight front/back very well, because it has four casters that rotate. One of the nice things about buying local (from the Tool Nut in Yorktown Heights, NY) is I was able to avoid any shipping charges.

[Ben Rivel]

I've got the ICS base on a PCS and am super happy with it. The PCS in the store had a PCS mobile base and it wasn't great for moving it straight front and back. The ICS mobile base can go straight front/back very well, because it has four casters that rotate. One of the nice things about buying local (from the Tool Nut in Yorktown Heights, NY) is I was able to avoid any shipping charges.

Oh yea, the ICS base on the PCS is def the way to go! For the extra $128 its well worth it.

Regarding shipping costs though, there are several online retailers who will ship for free. I bought my entire Sawstop setup from Acme Tools via eBay and it was free shipping, no sales tax and I got almost $200 in eBay Bucks on top of that! And Acme Tools is listed on Sawstops website as an authorized online reseller. Best deal around that I could find.