Lets Talk Wall Kitchen Cabinets

[Paul Shaffer]

Long time lurker, first time poster here, so take it easy.

I have decided to embark on my biggest project by far to date, kitchen cabinets. I have made a few "test" wall pieces out of painted poplar in the basement but still have some questions about preferred construction techniques. Mostly they revolve around finished end panels and mounting. I have read a lot of posts around here about these topics, but I haven't been able to discern a clear answer. In general, construction is all 3/4" prefinished ply carcass (for a home shop, having one type of plywood is just easier). Face frame are 3/4" solid stock (perhaps beaded). Doors are 5-piece flat recessed panel (aka Shaker) inset. The LOML wanted end panels that look like face frames with inset doors. The pieces I did in the basement are simply 5-piece panels attached to the side of the plywood carcass (easy enough). I used butt joints where the sides meet the face frame with less then satisfactory results, so I think I will go to tongue and groove or mitered corners. But has anyone every made the corners out of one piece? My ff stiles are 1 1/2", so I could use 8/4 stock and cut a 3/4 x 3/4 rabbet out of the back (effectively mimicing two 1 1/2" rails meeting at a mitered corner). The rails would attach to the side and front of this piece and I would have a seamless corner (with quarter-sawn grain on one side). Is there anything wrong with this approach? Second, how would you attach the faux side door inside the faux frame? Just glue and pin nail the rails and stiles?

As far as hanging, the ones in the basement had the 3/4" plywood backs recessed 3/4" from the back of the sides and I put a 3" wide piece of 3/4" solid stock level across the recess. This matched a 3/4" piece of stock put on the wall as a bracket. I loved this system except that I lost 1 1/2" of interior depth. Are there more efficient ways? Should I just flush the back of the sides with the back panel and shim to the imperfections in the wall?

Finally, for my test pieces, I dado'd the bottom into the sides, leaving about 1" of the side below the bottom shelf (bottom rail is 2" for hiding UC lighting). I don't like how this looks. Could I rabbet the bottom panel into the sides (glue and screwed through side)? I am worried about putting lots of heavy dishes on the bottom shelf and all the weight being born by the screws in shear mode. The advantage of this is that I could apply a 1/4" piece of cherry ply to the bottom and make it match while also hiding pocket holes from the bottom shelf to the face frame and the end "grain" of the side plywood. Would this be strong enough? Should I use a tongue and groove so there is a little bit of the side under the tongue to help bare the weight? What is standard for custom cabinetry?

Thanks for all the help just from reading through the previous posts. Please let me know what is unclear, as I am sure I have utterly confused most of you.

Cheers,
Paul

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Welcome, this is quite a first post for you. That is a lot to take in. I expected that there would be an answer, but, let me say that this did leave me a bit confused. For example, exactly where does the first question begin? It seems to be here based on question marks....

But has anyone every made the corners out of one piece?

But it looks like this is also a question:

In general, construction is all 3/4" prefinished ply carcass (for a home shop, having one type of plywood is just easier).

Off hand, I would say that having one type of plywood is indeed just easier, but probably more expensive. Would need to price it out.

I used butt joints where the sides meet the face frame

Butt joints are not very strong, but I am not sure I can totally visualize what you have done. Are you able to use pocket holes? (ie, would they be visible)

But has anyone every made the corners out of one piece?

Again, I am not sure that I understand, but, I have certainly seen dressers and/or tables that a solid piece for the corner and then the other pieces are usually connected in with a tenon. Is this what you mean?

My ff stiles are 1 1/2", so I could use 8/4 stock and cut a 3/4 x 3/4 rabbet out of the back (effectively mimicing two 1 1/2" rails meeting at a mitered corner). The rails would attach to the side and front of this piece and I would have a seamless corner (with quarter-sawn grain on one side). Is there anything wrong with this approach?

Are you talking about a mitered half lap?

how would you attach the faux side door inside the faux frame? Just glue and pin nail the rails and stiles?

Hopefully someone else will answer, but, one of my concerns is allowing for wood movement when you attach them. In this case, it might make sense to do exactly what you mentioned earlier, which is to use a single piece of wood for the edges, and then build your face frame into the side rather than attaching it after the fact. If you do glue it, then I expect that you will only be gluing the stiles to the piece that forms the front, so then your corner would a glued up solid piece.

The woodnet forum has a post with some pictures and drawings from April 2012. The title is "Raised panel cabinet sides and face frames". Not allowed to link to it here, sorry.

As far as hanging, the ones in the basement had the 3/4" plywood backs recessed 3/4" from the back of the sides and I put a 3" wide piece of 3/4" solid stock level across the recess. This matched a 3/4" piece of stock put on the wall as a bracket. I loved this system except that I lost 1 1/2" of interior depth. Are there more efficient ways? Should I just flush the back of the sides with the back panel and shim to the imperfections in the wall?

Option one: Screw the cabinet to the wall and use shims as you stated. I expect that you will screw from the top and the bottom.

Option two: You are talking about a French cleat. I have heard that a French cleat is easier to do, but I have never hung any cabinets, I only have cabinets on the ground (so far). If you have only one cleat, it would be at the top, and you could inset the cleat so that along the top row you would lose some depth. Obviously you would lose depth far enough from the top that you can still set the cabinet in place and let it drop onto the cleat. You would still screw it to the wall however.

Finally, for my test pieces, I dado'd the bottom into the sides, leaving about 1" of the side below the bottom shelf (bottom rail is 2" for hiding UC lighting). I don't like how this looks. Could I rabbet the bottom panel into the sides (glue and screwed through side)? I am worried about putting lots of heavy dishes on the bottom shelf and all the weight being born by the screws in shear mode. The advantage of this is that I could apply a 1/4" piece of cherry ply to the bottom and make it match while also hiding pocket holes from the bottom shelf to the face frame and the end "grain" of the side plywood. Would this be strong enough? Should I use a tongue and groove so there is a little bit of the side under the tongue to help bare the weight? What is standard for custom cabinetry?

Hmm, I had never given it a thought (since I never hung a cabinet). Hopefully someone else will chime in here.

[Larry Prem]

I cut all my dados in the side pieces. This simplifies the the cut list, since the top, bottom and back are all the same width.
Here are some details on how to build the cabinet, and a very handy cut-list calculator.

I would not worry about the bottom being assembled flush with the sides. It is still supported along its full length by the back, and the face frame in the front. It's not just the screws through the sides that hold it up.
I have had no problems building a couple of cabinets that way.

If you are worried about losing cabinet depth, you can hang cabinets with "french cleat" hardware made from metal. I make my cleats from strips of plywood.
http://www.amazon.com/Hangman-Produc...dp/B000VWAYZS/

[Paul Shaffer]

Thanks a lot for the information so far. I wasn't sure how to craft my post, breaking it up into smaller issues or rolling it all into one. I probably should have opted for single queries and multiple threads.

Lets start from the inside out and talk about carcass details. Larry, the link you give shows that the bottom of the cabinet is dado's into the sides, not rabbeted. This gives the bottom shelf a "lip" of wood to bear weight. This is how I constructed my test pieces and was very satisfied with the strength. BTW, my test for wall cabinet strength is being able to do a chin-up on it, because if you need something from the top shelf, what do you do? Do you go get a stool? No, you climb up onto the countertop by doing a pulling yourself up on the bottom shelf. So I am worried a rabbeted bottom shelf will not pass my test. Given your link and my instinct, I am tempted to say I need the bottom in a dado. Anyone else care to chime in? How do you "finish" the bottom of the cabinet? Edgeband the exposed end of the sides?

Andrew, thanks for the tip on that "other" forum. Good ideas. We will hopefully get back to the end panel discussion after more input on the carcass and hanging questions.

Thanks.

[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Paul - lots of questions here but this might be a useful link to guide you http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ght=miter+fold


As for assembling cabinet boxes - I used to use the dado technique which certainly results in a very strong box, but for the past 12 years or so I assemble all by boxes - uppers and base cabs with biscuits or dominos and screws. This allows for very much less handling of the pieces and very precise calculations as my inside opening is the size of the length of the horizontal panels - all without compromise to the strength and stability of the "system". I use prefin ply so gluing the horizontals to the sides is kind of useless except for the glue in the domino or biscuit slots. The dominos/biscuit provide the precise location - flush flush or otherwise - clamps pull the boxes together and the screws hold it all together. Now since I typically apply face frames I factor that in as part of the overall structural strength AND I apply a full overlay 1/2" back with screws - no glue - and that adds great rigidity and squareness to the structure.

As for the face frame questions here are a few photos. These end panels are butted and glued with dominos to the face frame because this is a paint grade system. For a stain grade system I would miter the side panel stile to the face frame vert using a simple miter fold - a glue and tape system that is discussed in the link above.

P8161446.jpg P8161449.jpg P8161448.jpg The first 2 photos show a frame and panel for a base cabinets.

The last shows an upside down frame for a cabinet that sits on the base cab making a tall corner. I don't have upper cabs to illustrate but these give the basic intent well enough.
Hope this helps. Now- I've got to go. Paint day for these guys.

[Paul Shaffer]

Thanks for the information Sam. I guess I spent too much time with my dad making furniture, but I can't see myself using just biscuits and screws , but, these are cabinets, not furniture, so I might have to get over it. Also, the link and pictures are exactly what I was thinking about for the face-frame to end panel construction. My question now is if you have a 5-piece door set into the end panel frame instead of the end panel being a 5-piece door itself. I have attached a picture of the effect I am trying to achieve.

endpanel.jpgFrom Ephesus Remodeling (although why they simulated beaded inset doors on the end panels with overlay doors on the real face frames I don't know).

Thanks again everyone.

[Sam Murdoch]

To me the door within the frame is a production method. It allows them to make doors and frames without the need to add finished end panels to the production line. If you chose to do that simply build your end frame, attach it to your face frame then set the panel in to the back of the frame with the appropriate clearance (to simulate the door clearance within the frame) and attach with some very thin metal straps or with wood blocks rabbeted into the back of the frame and panel. Too much work and room for error for me . Alternatively simply pin the panel through the front into the cabinet side.

As for the screws (1-1/2" with auger points - not sheet rock screws) and biscuits - I assure you this works beautifully and without compromise. I build furniture too but these are cupboards not heirloom pieces. The dado and rabbeted horizontal panel system is way overbuild - though many other will argue vehemently in favor. I have done both - the latter in my first decade - the former ever since. In fact the precision is more accurate using screws and biscuits as you need not compensate for variation in plywood thickness. Never had a call back for a cabinet coming apart and I've never been able to take one apart cleanly. Of course if your insides are also your outsides screws are not acceptable visually.

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like Sam has given you great information, here's my $.02 if it adds anything.

Skip the FF/inset door end panels. The sight lines don't work well as the things wrap the corner. See that picture you posted? The top of the bottom rail on the finished end panel should be at the same elevation as the doors on your cabinets. Instead the top of the bottom rail on the inset door is well above the top of the bottom rail on the doors, and this is jarring to the eye. The inset door/FF combo is a fast and dirty way of ending a run for factory cabs, not a great design motif. Show the LOYL how it looks done right (this will require careful drawing and building on your part), my guess, she will prefer that . If you really want to do the faux door panel, make sure the sight lines all elevate correctly (which means big bottom rails on your doors), and either nail the thing on later or catch it from the inside with some inconspicuous screws. I'm pretty sure the cabs in your pics are frameless trying to look a bit like FF cabinetry, which leads to some strange lines.

I'm with Sam, 1/2" backs, full overlay, screwed to plywood, no glue needed, will hold up fort knox. And your dishes too. The beauty of making your own custom cabs is you can build longer rows of boxes, all joined together in a seamless manner. So a continuous 1/2" back adds great shear strength. If you use 3/4" backs, at some point you will have to lift that massive thing up in the air, just too heavy, massive overkill, you may have to reframe the house with 2X6! No need for french cleats, but if you use them make sure to add that loss to the front. You need an inside dimension that can hold a standard dinner plate with doors closed, so what you add to the back, you must add to the front. I know a guy that used the same hanging system as you detailed, didn't add to front, now keeps his dinner plates on a shelf in the lowers...LOHL not thrilled!

I use deerfield Ultimates assembly screws both at work and at home, similar are available from many sources. Auger point tips, self counter sinking, annealed for strength, true assembly screws are worth their weight in gold.

I recommend against the solid corner. Taking a rabbit that large out of a piece of what will then be 6/4 will often result in the board cupping in, warping, doing very bad things. That is half the boards total thickness. Gluing two different boards at a right angle to each other will generally result in good long term stability. So skip the solid corner, asking for trouble there. The glue up is actually better. For stain grade work I do a miter, I use packing tape to do what is called a "tape miter". I build the main FF using this mitered corner as the last stile, glue the FF to the box, then build the finished end panel on the box as a second operation. For painted work I skip the miter and do a rabbit in the back of the end stile on the FF, build the end panel as a separate unit, apply the FF first, glue the end panel to side of cabinet and into the rabbit later. The rabbit will be on the end stile of the FF and be 1/4" less deep than the FF thickness. The rabbit will be 1/16" wider than the end panel thickness so you can flush trim the FF to the end panel face later. And the panel stile adjacent to this corner should be reduced in width by the thickness of the rabbits tongue, so that as you look around the corner both adjacent stiles appear the same width. Does this make sense? Simple concept, lots of words.

As for hanging, we include scribes on any vertical edge that meets a wall. So the back stile on the end panel will have between 1/4"-1/2" extra material left on it, that projects beyond the cabinet back. Usually we will rabbit the back of this out so you don't have to scribe the entire thickness of a FF to a wall. This allows you to place the cabinets (usually do the lowers first, build a box to stand the uppers on them for ease of installation) level them, scribe the edges to the wall. Looks like they grew there. We take most of the scribe off, leaving only the low spots, so the cabs are not teetering off the wall on the edges. I'd take a look at the walls to decide how much scribe to leave. If the walls are flat and level, you don't need but a light 1/4". In an old house, you may need 5/8" to get the boxes in level. This technique separates the custom work form lesser work in a subtle but palpable way.


For the partitions, dados, biscuits, dowels, confirmats, dominos, splines, pocket screws...all more than good enough. Take your pick. We usually make a "soffit" panel that goes under the uppers to finish them off. It projects past the FF by 1/2" -3/4", has a molded detail (1/2 round with filled, bull nose with cove, reverse ogee, etc) and gives the cabinets a finished but more formal look. The molded edge of this soffit can dress up or down the look depending on the style you are after. Its also a great place to hide under cabinet lighting, wires, and the edges of the plywood verticals. They actually did this in the pics you posted of the uppers. Looks great! Try it.

[Sam Murdoch]

Nicely said Peter. If only someone will read your entire post - lots of valuable info here - combined with mine of course . A veritable primer on how to build face frame cabinets. The only thing I do differently is that I hang the uppers first. I own a Gil Lift and this is worth every penny or dollar I spent on it - my best silent partner. Otherwise - a note about hanging uppers. If you have the option, sheath the wall behind the uppers flat with 1/2" ply then you can screw your 1/2" ply backed cabinets anyway you need to hold them up. If you don't have the option as to how to sheath the wall BUT IT IS FLAT - same thing, screw the cabinets directly to studs. If your walls are not flat, then a french cleat is a great option. There are thin metal versions or shop made wood options but you need consider the high spots on your walls and provide support accordingly. This is a rare situation encountered mostly when working on old cottages on the coast of Maine.

Have fun Paul. Good contribution Peter.

[Michael W. Clark]

Peter,
Not to hijack, but can you explain the bottom soffit panel in a little more detail? Is it nailed to the bottom of the uppers after installation, then trimmed out?

[Gene Davis]

I'll step in here and instead of words, will try to show my scheme in pictures. I have done a few frameless cabinetry whole-house jobs, and prefer to use simple trim elements married to straightforward frameless design standards, to come up with an inset door look.

The first picture below shows a four-door run of wall cabinets. The two flanking cabinets are single door units, the center one is a double door cab. Flat trim boards show edgewise and are between the boxes. Applied end panels have their top and bottom rails sized so that the center panels line up with those of the doors.

In the second pic, you see a door and drawerfront that both exhibit the perimeter bead molding I feature on the doors in my model. This pic is from the Walzcraft catalog, Walzcraft being my preferred door provider.

I should say that in doing cabinet work, I enjoy pretty much a shop-free life, preferring to do the design and installation, but leaving the fabrication of all the parts, including finishing, to suppliers. For my carcases, I use a CNC shop that I email my work file to, and the parts come on packaged skids, everything with a label on it. Assembly is quick and easy.

The third pic shows the carcases with the between-trim boards. I show them in white, and only one box is edgetaped. We usually do boxes using melamine-faced PB in the hardrock maple facing, but have done jobs using prefinished ply in maple.

Pic 4 shows the run of boxes with sub-trim in place. This run of cabinets adjoins a wall at the left end.

Pic 5 displays the addition of the top frieze and applied end panel. This end panel has no perimeter bead done by Walzcraft. Only the doors have the perimeter bead.

[Mark Rakestraw]

I've been mitering end panels to face frames for years but the last cabinet I built was for a single island job and I used 8/4 stock as you suggest. It worked great and I think I'll go that route for my next full kitchen also.
Mark

[Carl Beckett]

If only someone will read your entire post - lots of valuable info here

I read this entire post. Some parts more than once (and since Im old I even took some notes....). Very helpful and valuable info here!!

[Carl Beckett]

Peter - you noted you used Deerfield Ultimates assembly screws - do you have a source? (am getting google overload on that search....)

[Steve Griffin]

One tip for doing "tape miter" corners for those with a shaper. Rough cut your miters within 1/16
on the table saw. Then climb cut with outboard fence and 45degree cutter on the shaper. Glass smooth, dead perfect miter.