Lets Talk Wall Kitchen Cabinets

[Kent A Bathurst]

I did kitchen cabinets one time. BTDT - but they were beautiful, if I do say so myself. Birch 3/4" ply carcass, Cherry FF + end panels; cherry inset doors with true divided lites holding stained glass that matched the stained glass in the ceiling fixtures. Except the sections that housed the library - those had clear antique-looking glass.

My goal was to teach myself making those doors. Mission accomplished, but 33 doors was a bit overkill for that.

My point: As a guy that has done exactly one set of kitchen cabinets, I had enough to sweat out in the fabrication. The installation - I used 1 x red oak to make french cleats. Yes - I lost 3/4" of inside cabinet depth, but I accounted for that when I measured the largest diameter dinner plate, and the largest dimension book in the cooking library, which would be in the cabinets.

The french cleat approach was the single smartest thing I did. It took me, one neighbor - both idiots on installing cabinets - and 2 six-packs of Bass Ale to carry each cabinet up from the basement workshop, set it in place on the cleat, whack on the side to set it in place beside its neighbor, and go back downstairs for the next one.

The guys that do this a lot have completely different approaches than I - but for a first-time, one-off event, the french cleats were a godsend.

My 2 cents..................

[Paul Shaffer]

Thanks for all the information. Lots to take in. And believe me, I have read it all, a couple times.

As far as dado versus screws versus biscuits, etc... I think I will go with dado's because I am going to have the carcass parts CNC'd and shipped to me. I know the dado's will be dead straight and square. Its definitely overkill on strength, but I see no downside. I like the idea of a "soffit" under the cabinet for UC lighting wiring and will have to explore this.

For corners, I will try the "tape miter" trick and see if the results are satisfactory. Also, I assume ideal would be to rip a wider piece down the middle and "fold" it around the corner for grain and color matching? Any secrets to getting great miters cut on a table saw versus the shaper method mentioned? What about a router table? Should I invest in a lock miter set for ease of assembly?

For end panels, as most of you mentioned, I prefer the look of a simple frame and panel on the end and may mock this up for the LOML. Any suggestions on frame dimensions? Match it to the face frame dimensions for best sight lines?

I really like the cleat installation method in the basement cabinets I did. Even with 3/4 ply all around, a 4 foot wall cabinet was easily lifted into place by my wife and I. Held there easily while I got it in place and screwed it in. For that cabinet, I used 4 inch washer head screws to go through the 3/4 ply back, the 3/4 solid stock cleat, the 1/2 rock and leaving 2 inches in the stud. I put one in each stud. The cleat was about 1/4 of the way down the cabinet back. I know I can hang on the cabinet, because I tried it. Is this sufficient for kitchen cabinets, or are screws into a lower cleat also recommended? Also, the way I figure it, to get the typical 11"+ or so of clear space inside a factory built 12" upper cabinet with overlay doors, I will have to make mine at least 13 1/4" (3/4" cleat, 3/4" back, 3/4" inset doors). I have read that many people like deeper upper cabinets, up to 15" even, but does anyone have experience with this here? Do they get in the way sticking out that far?

Also, the way our kitchen design is, there can't be any wall cabinet runs longer then about 3 feet that aren't wrapped around an inside corner, so I won't be building huge boxes even if I wanted to. So weight, etc.. will not be an issue.

What haven't I thought about as far as wall cabinets? Thanks a lot again. I got the basics from books like Lang's, but as you all know, the devil is in the details, which obviously vary from job to job.

Cheers,
Paul

[Steve Griffin]

For corners, I will try the "tape miter" trick and see if the results are satisfactory. Also, I assume ideal would be to rip a wider piece down the middle and "fold" it around the corner for grain and color matching? Any secrets to getting great miters cut on a table saw versus the shaper method mentioned? What about a router table? Should I invest in a lock miter set for ease of assembly?


Paul

Tips for miters cut on Table saw: Select straight grained stable piece of wood. Use a good combo blade. Triple check that it's cutting at exactly 45degrees. Hold down to the table and against the fence. Maybe make two cuts--one quick rough cut and then a slow finishing cut. If your pieces warp or twist badly after cutting, use them for something else and make new ones. Use good packing tape--use a few little pieces to tack in place, then a long piece entirely down the joint. After you fold the joint over, hold it in place with full wraps of tape about every 18".

[Carl Beckett]

Tips for miters cut on Table saw: Select straight grained stable piece of wood. Use a good combo blade. Triple check that it's cutting at exactly 45degrees. Hold down to the table and against the fence. Maybe make two cuts--one quick rough cut and then a slow finishing cut. If your pieces warp or twist badly after cutting, use them for something else and make new ones. Use good packing tape--use a few little pieces to tack in place, then a long piece entirely down the joint. After you fold the joint over, hold it in place with full wraps of tape about every 18".

I dont own a set - but I have heard that the miter lock bits are tricky to get setup and working well. A 45 on the table saw should be more than strong enough if a good glue joint is obtained - no need to 'lock' it.

(actually I take that back - I now do own a miter lock bit but have never used it! - hmm.. maybe a little weekend experiment to test)

[Sam Murdoch]

Tips for miters cut on Table saw: Select straight grained stable piece of wood. Use a good combo blade. Triple check that it's cutting at exactly 45degrees. Hold down to the table and against the fence. Maybe make two cuts--one quick rough cut and then a slow finishing cut. If your pieces warp or twist badly after cutting, use them for something else and make new ones. Use good packing tape--use a few little pieces to tack in place, then a long piece entirely down the joint. After you fold the joint over, hold it in place with full wraps of tape about every 18".

Just as Steve says. The table saw is more than good enough. You don't want a polished miter for the glue up. The important consideration is to avoid fraying of the sharp edge so a zero clearance insert is a good use tool in this case. Run a heavy duty clear packing tape down the outside of your your jointed pieces touching tightly at the sharp edge. Using a laminate roller or the like, apply even pressure all along your taped edge to be certain you have an even tight adhesion. Flip it over add your glue liberally to the joint. Fold it slowly and as Steve wrote - use strips of good packing tape (the reinforced stuff) as your clamps. Keep an eyed on your joint and pull together with the packing tape as you need it - whether 6" apart or 18" apart. Clean the glue out of the inside, and then move on to the next joint or go have a beer while the glue dries .

It doesn't get easier than this. The lock miter is now defunct in my shop. I have done 12' joints with the miter fold with great success.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter - you noted you used Deerfield Ultimates assembly screws - do you have a source? (am getting google overload on that search....)

I bought them last time from ww hardware , was the best price on the quantities I use.

http://www.wwhardware.com/ultimate-s...crews-8-scus8/

[Paul Johnstone]

My ff stiles are 1 1/2", so I could use 8/4 stock and cut a 3/4 x 3/4 rabbet out of the back (effectively mimicing two 1 1/2" rails meeting at a mitered corner). The rails would attach to the side and front of this piece and I would have a seamless corner (with quarter-sawn grain on one side). Is there anything wrong with this approach? Second, how would you attach the faux side door inside the faux frame? Just glue and pin nail the rails and stiles?

I'm doing a similiar project.. kitchen cabinets with sides that look like frame and panel doors. I've been using
the screws used for attaching drawer fronts. They have a wide head on them. I drill an oversized hole in the plywood carcass and screw the frame and panel piece to the side. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

As far as hanging, the ones in the basement had the 3/4" plywood backs recessed 3/4" from the back of the sides and I put a 3" wide piece of 3/4" solid stock level across the recess. This matched a 3/4" piece of stock put on the wall as a bracket. I loved this system except that I lost 1 1/2" of interior depth. Are there more efficient ways? Should I just flush the back of the sides with the back panel and shim to the imperfections in the wall?

This seems to be way overkill.
I am doing shiplapped backs on mine (3/4" thick).. Then I bought some aluminum hangers which fasten to the wall and the back of the cabinet. It is much like a french cleat, but it's only 1/8" thick, so you don't lose so much space. It's kind of time consuming to mount the bracket to the wall perfectly level (you need to shim in parts, due to the wall not being flat), but once it's up, it's a breeze to hang the cabinets.. After the cabinets are hung on the aluminum cleat.. shim under the bottom of the cabinet to make them plumb and then one or two screws in the bottom. You can use Fastcap screws with the hardwood covers to hide the holes..

The other option would be to use a 1/4" back and a 3/4" hardwood strip at the top to screw in.
Heck, for some smaller cabinets, I've just stapled a 1/4" back and screwed that to the wall.. maybe that's not recommended but it has worked.


Don't really understand what you are asking in the last paragraph.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,
Not to hijack, but can you explain the bottom soffit panel in a little more detail? Is it nailed to the bottom of the uppers after installation, then trimmed out?

Michael, the soffit panels are made different ways by different shops, there are a number of possibilities. Where I work the style is pretty traditional, so I'll describe that. The panels are usually veneer faced MDF or veneer core plywood, generally 1/2" thickness, in the same species as the doors and FF's. i've also done them with shop sawn veneer to match the species used for the FF when plywood was not redly available. We edge band them with 1"-2" solid stock, so that is what you see projecting from under the cabinets. They generally project 1/2"-3/4" from the FF and have a molded edge that is more or less elaborate depending on the style of cabinetry. That is strictly an aesthetic choice. We use decorative brass screws, usually antique brass of bronze and screw them into the vertical partitions from below. Few people ever look up to see them, but its still nice to have something more decorative. We leave 1/4" to 1/2" scribe at the back so they sit flush to the wall or back splash but maintain an even reveal at the front.

What is equally important is what is happening just above the soffit panel. The bottom partition is generally edge banded in solid stock 1 1/4" X 1" with a 3/4" X 3/4" rabbit. The doors are inset, the FF are set 3/8" below this band which creates an integral door stop and gives you a good glue surface for the FF. The vertical plywood partitions generally go 1 1/2"-2" past the bottom of the bottom shelf, so when you put the soffit panel in place there is a dead space into which puck lights can project. The old halogen ones needed this for heat dissipation, some of the LED's still have a decent sized puck that needs clearance, it gives a place to hide wires, you still have to chase the wires up somewhere and hide a transformer with some led systems. Not my area of expertise. There are also very thin ribbons of LED's that you can put in a shallow dado now, but its still nice to finish the bottom of the boxes. Does this waste a little space? Yes, a little, but it does create that integral stop for inset doors, and you need some projection of FF past the bottom shelf to keep the visual balance anyway.

Here are a few quick sketches to illustrate. One illustrates the corner detail I typically use for end panels in paint grade or well stained clear grades, note the rabbited corner versus a miter. Two illustrates in section the basic detail for the cabinet bottom minus the soffit panel. Three includes a basic soffit panel with thumbnail, you can do any number of things to this to dress it up, cove and bead, ogee, etc. For simple rectangles I apply the edging to the panel and route or shape latter. If there is a bump out involved you have to wrap the finished molding like a panel mold with inside miters at inside corners. Hope this helps show you one system.

[Michael W. Clark]

Thanks Peter. The soffit panel looks great. I'm going to build some upper cabs eventually for my wetbar and I think I will incorporate them.