Japanese Chisels... Which ones to get?

[James Bird]

Ok so I have some questions for all the Japanese tool users I know are floating around this forum.

First off I want a nice basic set of japanese chisels. I will spend the amount necessary to get them... just want to hear some people's opinons who own these various sets...

First set I have looked at are the Iyoroi set from TFWW I guess my question is... are these "good enough" or will I feel they are lacking?

Next set I have looked at are the Matsumura blue steel set, these got rave reviews from FWW but I dunno... I have read some concerns about them being basically "unheard of" in Japan

The 3rd set is the koyamaichi set from Stu, a member of this forum who runs his own site that sells this set. I guess these are the ones I am leaning to... but they are also the most expensive... so if I don't need to spend this much that would be nice...

other brands I have heard about are Fujihiro, Koyama, Ice Bear, etc... Obviously Tasai would be out of the question!

Another route I could see going in would be to buy just 2 or 3 chisels of a higher quality for the same amount of money as set of 6 from a lesser maker.... I get that this is maybe a better idea... but for one... I kinda am a guy who likes "sets" and 2 again, if the Iyoroi are the way to go then so be it...

Also I would like to add that if anyone knows of a set in the price range of the Iyoroi's from TFWW that they believe is better or is just a little more and is better... or they feel I should also consider, I would love to hear about them...

Thanks so much for your time! I appreciate the seemingly endless wisdom from the SMC and I would like to apologize to anyone who was offended by another thread I posted a week or so ago that was deleted. But lets not dwell on that.

[David Wong]

I have a set of Matsumura blue steel chisels that I like very much. A couple of them were prone to chipping when I first got them, but they settled down nicely after a few sharpening. They sharpen easily and hold an edge reasonably well. Note that these are small in size compared to other chisels I have. The best chisels I have are a couple of Imai sword steel chisels. They are surprisingly easy to sharpen, and they seem to hold a sharp edge forever. Both the Matsumura's and Imai's are very easy to maintain by stropping on a piece of plain leather, or using a high grit finish stone. I typically use them with a 375gm metal hammer.

My advice would be to pickup a few chisels from different makers before getting a full set. I probably use 3mm, 6mm, 9mm, 12mm, and 19mm, most frequently - of course your own work will dictate the sizes you use most often.

Stu is a great resource and carries quality merchandise. I also have had nothing but good experiences from TFWW.

[Jim Matthews]

I second the motion to discuss your needs with the vendor, directly.

Japan woodworker also has some knowledgeable people on staff - if you get a consensus from three, you've probably got a fair survey.
I don't know your degree of experience, so please forgive an obvious question - Have you used Japanese chisels for an extended period of time?

I found the iron hoops on the handles unacceptable. Great steel was found in all of my chisel variants, including the coarsest set - they were all easy to get quite sharp.
In the end, I found that a smooth, oval handle is best for me. I didn't like always using a hammer or mallet to drive the japanese style.

As you're well aware, these are long money, so it's worthwhile to have a feel for what you're buying.

jim
wpt, ma

[David Weaver]

Any of the chisels you mention would allow you to work wood just fine.

I would buy the koyamaichi chisels, though. The Iyoroi blue steel chisels are probably also fine. I don't like Iyoroi's white steel stuff so well unless it is a higher end chisel, and most of their higher-end chisels aren't marketed over here.

I like David Wong's choice for sizes above, too. I don't know where the standard set of japanese chisels comes from (the 5 piece sets), they always choose 2 narrow chisels and 3 wide ones that you'll never use much.

[James Bird]

I second the motion to discuss your needs with the vendor, directly.

Japan woodworker also has some knowledgeable people on staff - if you get a consensus from three, you've probably got a fair survey.
I don't know your degree of experience, so please forgive an obvious question - Have you used Japanese chisels for an extended period of time?

I found the iron hoops on the handles unacceptable. Great steel was found in all of my chisel variants, including the coarsest set - they were all easy to get quite sharp.
In the end, I found that a smooth, oval handle is best for me. I didn't like always using a hammer or mallet to drive the japanese style.

As you're well aware, these are long money, so it's worthwhile to have a feel for what you're buying.

jim
wpt, ma

I actually only own one japanese chisel. I got it at an antique store and it is a mortise chisel. So I have little to no experience with them. Which is why I would like to own a few, having many different types of chisels and woodworking tools makes doing my craft more enjoyable. Some live by the Anarchist Tool chest notion off less is more. For me, I find doing a whole project with a different set or culture of tools than I normally use a challenge and very educational and enjoyable. Hence the want for Japanese chisels.

I am curious to hear more about why you found the Iron hoops unacceptable. You mention a smooth oval handle, I have never seen these as standard on any japanese chisel so I am assuming you made the handles and replaced them onto your japanese chisels yourself... can you expand on that and maybe include pictures.

[Jack Curtis]

If I were buying my first Japanese chisels today, I think I'd go with a few Koyamaichi white steel, maybe even shinogi, from Stu. But most of the JWW chisels look OK, and the Hida Fuji (Imai) are excellent, too. If you ever get into super high end stuff, there are some other choices. You may want to do a search on ebay right now, within the next 7 hours or so, there are a couple of full sets from the '80's going for bargain prices.

There's also a set of Japanese tools on ebay that look real nice, but there's no information to speak of, so it's a pot shot. Still, might be a better way to go: buy a bunch of mixed tools for not much money and try them out, especially in these times when there are ebay sellers who sell for a percentage and haven't a clue as to what they have. And I might mention that occasionally there are real deals to be had there. I recently found a Kisuke Dragon 9 mm for almost nothing from an Osaka seller.

[Chris Vandiver]

Don't overlook Ouchi chisels(also available from Stu). These are very good chisels and highly thought of in Japan. They come in a variety of shapes, my favorite being the Kaku-uchi style.

[Jim Matthews]

To be clear, I owned and sold off all my Japaneses chisels.
The business end was excellent, and the steel easy to sharpen.

I felt they were heavy on the front end, and uncomfortable to hold for any period of time.

When I started cutting dovetails well with my saw, I found chisels less useful.

I went with modern western chisels, with smooth handles. I did not retrofit any of the japanese chisels I owned.

I never got used to the japanese chisels, and disliked the feel of the hoops in my hands.

The exception would be my long paring chisels which are japanese, and have (probably not coincidentally) smooth handles.

I would recommend going with the vendor that will allow a return if the "test drive" isn't to your liking.
Modern japanese chisels are so well made (even the coarsest) that they'll likely last your lifetime.

Choose carefully.

[Jack Curtis]

Don't overlook Ouchi chisels(also available from Stu). These are very good chisels and highly thought of in Japan. They come in a variety of shapes, my favorite being the Kaku-uchi style.

They have a great rep. A couple of old ones arrived Saturday, haven't had a chance to use them yet, they look real good. I find the Kaku-uchi style seductive, bevelless trapezoids always get me going.

[Stuart Tierney]

They have a great rep. A couple of old ones arrived Saturday, haven't had a chance to use them yet, they look real good. I find the Kaku-uchi style seductive, bevelless trapezoids always get me going.

Trapezoids...

^%&$#%^&$&...

I had someone in Israel I think it was completely confused about 'that shape' because, being an Australian, I call that shape a trapezium.

But he, living in Israel and using American English, knows 'that shape' as an isosceles trapezoid, and a trapezium as something quite different and not a shape that would be desirable as a chisel.

Stupid semantics...

Stu.

(Who likes them too. Doesn't matter if they're Ouchi or Koyamaichi, they're all nice. )

[Jack Curtis]

Trapezoids...

^%&$#%^&$&...

I had someone in Israel I think it was completely confused about 'that shape' because, being an Australian, I call that shape a trapezium.

But he, living in Israel and using American English, knows 'that shape' as an isosceles trapezoid, and a trapezium as something quite different and not a shape that would be desirable as a chisel.

Stupid semantics...

What's the translation for "Kaku-uchi?"

[Stuart Tierney]

What's the translation for "Kaku-uchi?"

Kaku is 'angle/shape'. San-kaku = 3-shape = triangle. Shi-kaku = 4-shape = square. Naga-shi-kaku = long-4-shape = rectangle.

Uchi is not really clear to me to be honest. Uchi usually means 'inside' as a very literal meaning, and while that makes sense to me it probably makes no sense to anyone else. When you're self taught at reading Japanese (and teaching English to folks), you tend to be able to take a 'meaning' and match it up to what it really means, sort of. But it also means 'hit', and both meanings are used when it comes to chisels...

For a long time, I always ordered the faceted chisel hoops as te-uchi, te = hand and uchi = hammered. Now, tsuchi-me which is a better meaning of 'hammer-look' like moku-me = wood-look.

As it is, the 'hit' meaning is used when it comes to chisels.

So, it either means an 'hammered shape' or an 'inside shape' as the sides are angled in. Really, it's the counter to 'mentori' which translates as 'beveled edge'. As this shape was the simple, economical shape used for most chisels, it's most likely that it's how they came off the hammer and the name stuck.

That's about all I got. Someone with a more pure knowledge of Japanese can probably tell you, but maybe not as well. A lot of the tool terms are completely unknown by the average Tanaka-san walking down the street.

Stu.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, that's actually quite clear. I learned to chat in Spanish in immersion, so there are lots of words I can use properly in Spanish but can't translate into English (never taught anyone English or Spanish).

That's about all I got. Someone with a more pure knowledge of Japanese can probably tell you, but maybe not as well. A lot of the tool terms are completely unknown by the average Tanaka-san walking down the street.

That's pretty much true in English, probably any language. There are subsets of work described by a language subset. For example, rebate, rabbet, rabbit....

[Derek Cohen]

......

First off I want a nice basic set of japanese chisels. I will spend the amount necessary to get them... just want to hear some people's opinons who own these various sets...

First set I have looked at are the Iyoroi set from TFWW I guess my question is... are these "good enough" or will I feel they are lacking?

Next set I have looked at are the Matsumura blue steel set, these got rave reviews from FWW but I dunno... I have read some concerns about them being basically "unheard of" in Japan

The 3rd set is the koyamaichi set from Stu, a member of this forum who runs his own site that sells this set. I guess these are the ones I am leaning to... but they are also the most expensive... so if I don't need to spend this much that would be nice...

other brands I have heard about are Fujihiro, Koyama, Ice Bear, etc... Obviously Tasai would be out of the question!

Another route I could see going in would be to buy just 2 or 3 chisels of a higher quality for the same amount of money as set of 6 from a lesser maker.... I get that this is maybe a better idea... but for one... I kinda am a guy who likes "sets" and 2 again, if the Iyoroi are the way to go then so be it.........

Hi James

So, are you wanting paring chisels (slicks) or bench chisels or dovetail chisels (which are really bench chisels)?

Or do you want sets or each?

For dovetails I think my Koyamaichi dovetailers are excellent. Stu had Mr Koyama grind the shoulders for me so that the lands are miniscule. 3, 4 1/2, 6, 12, 19, and 25mm

As mentioned, one does not really "need" expensive chisels to work. My bench chisels are Iyoroi. Nothing fancy. They hold a good edge. Keep in mind that bench chisels are only designed for chopping. Mine go up to 37mm.

Same your bench chisel money for the slicks. A good slick is a joy forever. I started out with basic Iyoroi, and theybwere fine. It was only when I began using Kiyohesi that the difference became apparent - thinner steel, better balance, even better edge holding. But these were a 3 year wait. No "need" for that. Mine run from 6mm up - no point in using something smaller. They really come into their own in the large sizes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Bird]

I would recommend going with the vendor that will allow a return if the "test drive" isn't to your liking.
Modern japanese chisels are so well made (even the coarsest) that they'll likely last your lifetime.

Choose carefully.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by Coarsest? I have never heard this term when referring to chisels? Maybe I am just not understanding, that wouldn't be a big surprise to me (or my wife!)