Japanese Chisels... Which ones to get?

[James Bird]

Hi James

So, are you wanting paring chisels (slicks) or bench chisels or dovetail chisels (which are really bench chisels)?

Or do you want sets or each?

Derek

So how about this... what if I bought just a few sizes of "bench chisel" just for mallet use or chopping... and got the Iyoroi's
Then maybe got 2 or 3 slicks
and maybe 2 or 3 Dovetail profile chisels...

What do you think of that Derek?

And also if you do think thats a good Idea, what brand slicks would you recommend getting? and what brand Dovetailers? and even what brand bench chisels? would you still recommend the Iyoroi if all I was using them for was chopping?


thanks again for the help, It is a real treat to get advice from you guys. Definitely Invaluable.

[James Bird]

Oh, and also what sizes would you recommend getting in slicks and DT and even bench chisels If I were to go with the route I mentioned... I know this varies but I am wondering what your opinion would be.

[Jim Matthews]

Listen to SWMBO - they know what is best for us.

I mean to say that there are several grades of steel on offer for the Japanese chisels.
I'm no metallurgist, so I could be off on a couple key points that follow:

Each time the steel is folded over the layers become progressively thinner - finer if you will.
The repeated forging drives the smallest particles into a more uniform distribution, for a keener edge.
The handling of this process has limits - and the experienced maker has a clear idea of what to do.

This all costs time, and time dedicated to making such tools demands higher prices.

The simpler tools have fewer refining steps, and by definition could be called "coarse" by comparison.
http://www.navaching.com/forge/coldforge.html

My knowledge of this is purely academic - I've never forged steel or iron.
I have sharpened LOTS of blades, and the Japanese chisels are among my favorites - they sharpen quickly to a keen edge.

Even the humblest Japanese chisels I've owned are easy to whip into shape (I suppose because the backs are hollowed).
I just don't like the hoops.

[Jason Steward]

I have a full set of nomikatsu chisels made out of hitachi high speed steel from traditional wood worker. If you really want the best japanese chisels these are it. They are only rarely available, and this guy from texas gets them. Hardness is as good as it comes, RC66. The steel is as fine grain as you can get. I used to own white laminated steel japanese chisels but these blow them away. As others have said japanese chisels are designed to be used with a mallet, I use a brass one. I have never found better edge retention than these. I have vintage Swans, and others but there is no comparison. These are my go to chisels. If you are looking for the best these are it.

[Stuart Tierney]

I have a full set of nomikatsu chisels made out of hitachi high speed steel from traditional wood worker. If you really want the best japanese chisels these are it. They are only rarely available, and this guy from texas gets them. Hardness is as good as it comes, RC66. The steel is as fine grain as you can get. I used to own white laminated steel japanese chisels but these blow them away. As others have said japanese chisels are designed to be used with a mallet, I use a brass one. I have never found better edge retention than these. I have vintage Swans, and others but there is no comparison. These are my go to chisels. If you are looking for the best these are it.

Umm, you sure about that?

Really, really sure?

(Reaches into a drawer 1 foot from my left hand, places hand on a new one. Reaches into another drawer 1 foot from my right hand, places hand on a well used and loved one. Not that rare I don't think. They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...)

Stu.

[Derek Cohen]

They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...

If they are anything like the one I have from you, Stu, then .. no .. I very much doubt there is much tougher around. I gave up trying to flat hone the bevel face and hollow ground it (then is was easy to sharpen).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stuart Tierney]

They're also not the longest lasting, toughest or hardest chisels I own. Not by a very, very, very long way...

If they are anything like the one I have from you, Stu, then .. no .. I very much doubt there is much tougher around. I gave up trying to flat hone the bevel face and hollow ground it (then is was easy to sharpen).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Bingo.

Hollow grinding is ok, microbevel is better but the steel is so tough, it doesn't really matter.

Actually, doing a full flat bevel on those chisels is not the recommended honing technique at all, and one I can't advocate. It's made worse by the soft backing steel, since that tears stuff up in a completely different way to the stupidly hard and tough steel.

Still a bit of a quandary really, and talking with the folks who make them, we've come up with a recommendation of sorts.

(Hint, you've got all you need right there Derek.)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Stu - compare the yxr-7 to anything else HSS of known alloy that you've used? We do already know that M2 isn't real great for chisels, but I don't know if we know whether or not M4 is - probably better for wear resistance in a plane. I'm wondering what's in it the yxr-7, as it appears in several manufacturer's chisels.

Btw...did you get to use one of those suehiro 0.5 micron stones yet? I'm going to guess someone who buys one for 360 big ones isn't going to want you to blacken the surface before you send it to them!! If I didn't have such a piggish amount of stones already, I'd buy one just out of curiosity, but a recent stint with a genuine escher has has hinted that I already have as good of a razor stone as there is. I could be swayed if they make one at half or quarter the size of the 0.5 micron, though.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu - compare the yxr-7 to anything else HSS of known alloy that you've used? I'm wondering what's in it.

Btw...did you get to use one of those suehiro 0.5 micron stones yet? I'm going to guess someone who buys one for 360 big ones isn't going to want you to blacken the surface!!

From what Fujikawa tells me, it's not that much different to Co-HSS, but it's what's been done to it at the steel mill that makes it so frighteningly tough.

You know how some folks here will get a piece of steel, heat it up and beat it to death to make the grain structure smaller? How it toughens up the steel without sacrificing much else?

Now do that to M4 HSS and see what happens, and you get YXR-7. It's technically not a PM-HSS, but Fujikawa (and Iyoroi) call it such, so I'm safe enough doing the same.

So the steel starts out as tougher than M2 (what's in the Koyama HSS as previously mentioned, gooood chisels if you're into that kind of thing) and then the crank the 'tough' up by 200-400% according to Hitachi's testing, and by my testing, it's at least twice as tough as the Koyama chisels.

The Suehiro stone? I ponied up and bought one for my own amusement, and I use it often. Completely academic really, but it does make a difference over and above anything save the Shapton 30K stones, which are effectively the same thing but thinner and more expensive for what you're getting. It's almost embarrassing to make them available, but folks are buying them fairly regularly and if you're the kind of person who wants something like that, they're as good as you'll find.

I can tell you that when it's done it's thing on an edge, you can tell by how it cuts and how it looks in a microscope. All wooliness at the edge is gone.

Nice, but pointless really.

(But I still use mine all the time. Not like it's ever going to wear out...)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Pointless for woodworking, but for razors it definitely wouldn't be pointless.

And for a true freehand sharpener woodworking, you could use a medium stone and lift the handle or iron just a tiny bit on a 0.5 micron stone and put on a uniform tiny microbevel, one that wouldn't threaten the next raising of the wire edge with the medium stone. Ideally quick, no fiddling with guides and does the work only to the part of the steel that matters.

I could never understand the shapton 30k's pricing. Abrasive of that size really isn't that expensive. There is a place literally down the street from me that sells alumina down to .05 micron. there's probably enough in $60 worth (at street price for any buyer) of it to make at least 2 shapton 30ks. It's about what the buyer will pay, i guess. Their 1 micron alumina is the same price. You know what i'm implying by that, of course, that the actual cost of a 12k cream abrasive and a 30k glasstone is not a lot different.

There is a very small market at this point of razor honers who will pay a very large amount for a finer stone. Presume that some of them are buying your suehiro.

[Jason Steward]

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com.../products/633/

take a look for yourself

[David Weaver]

It would be nice if they could tell us exactly what hitachi steel is in those chisels. Hitachi has many of them, and if it's SKH51, or whatever they call their version of M2, it's a lot different than if they are yxr-7 steel.

[Mel Fulks]

As much as I like m2 for machining they don't make the best chisels. They do make good ones compared to many new ones. Most guys in the business used to keep worn down high speed knives for chisels and such. It was thru borrowing such tools that I learned the profound difference between high speed and the too common semi high speed.Long time ago I bought a set of European chisels that are absolute rubbish,but I've opened many a can of paint with them.Won't name the brand here but they are still going and highly hyped. I too am skeptical of any new process that starts off with a modern formula steel and claims to be able to greatly improve it. As for sharpening stones I'm amazed at the cost of and interest in them . Roy Underhill made a point in one of his shows about the simplicity of his sharpening stuff. He does some good work.

[James Bird]

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com.../products/633/

take a look for yourself

I don't think he needs to take a look... He sells them on his site ... I'm gunna go with what stu says... HSS doesn't seem like the best route to go when it comes to chisels... I have found with all my carbon steel vintage chisels in comparison to say even some of my a2 plane blades, that sometimes having to sharpen more often to gain even tad bit keener edge isn't the worst thing in the world... I find it keeps me practiced and in the routine of sharpening... may sound weird but it makes sense to me haha

[Jack Curtis]

Maybe we can all get together at the next WIA with our Japanese chisels in hand and have a dueling chisels entertainment. To the death?