California Gas Prices

[David Weaver]

I sure am glad that the disease of demanding specific formulations like CA does didn't spread to the east.

I don't feel any sympathy for them for having a shortage when they basically created it themselves. Cutting the consumption back (slow down driving, drive less, etc) would cut the price back, at least temporarily, but the users of it don't seem to want to do that until their hand is forced because they're out of money, which of course happens the same way as leaves fall off trees - a little at a time.

I don't know what the natural gas situation is in california, but I wish that if they had a big want, that they'd start to run cars directly on natural gas. We have so much natural gas and propane out here, that it makes no sense that we don't use it as a bridge because the alternative garbage legislators (who appear to have no clue about science and viability) push seems to include limited resources (lithium) and drastic changes and expense (100% electric cars) that have no way to work viably except on short commutes and for those with deep pockets.

I asked a local trader here how fast he thought they could deliver natural gas if cars magically went 100% natural gas over a year, and he said "we could get the gas in place faster than the cars arrived, with some conditions".

[Kevin W Johnson]

I sure am glad that the disease of demanding specific formulations like CA does didn't spread to the east.

I don't feel any sympathy for them for having a shortage when they basically created it themselves. Cutting the consumption back (slow down driving, drive less, etc) would cut the price back, at least temporarily, but the users of it don't seem to want to do that until their hand is forced because they're out of money, which of course happens the same way as leaves fall off trees - a little at a time.

I don't know what the natural gas situation is in california, but I wish that if they had a big want, that they'd start to run cars directly on natural gas. We have so much natural gas and propane out here, that it makes no sense that we don't use it as a bridge because the alternative garbage legislators (who appear to have no clue about science and viability) push seems to include limited resources (lithium) and drastic changes and expense (100% electric cars) that have no way to work viably except on short commutes and for those with deep pockets.

I asked a local trader here how fast he thought they could deliver natural gas if cars magically went 100% natural gas over a year, and he said "we could get the gas in place faster than the cars arrived, with some conditions".

Not sure have we "have so much propane", as it's derived from oil, and the price of propane doesn't support the notion. Natural gas is an option, but I'm not sure we want California hooked on it.... it's not real cheap now... I can only see the price going up if CA. gets addicted to it.

As for electric cars your right, no, it's not an answer as we have no way to charge them if there were a big shift to 100% chargable electrics. We can't produce the power necessary to charge them.

Two weeks, we saw $3.35 for 87 octane just across the border in Tennessee, it had risen to $3.45 when we stopped there on the way back a few days later. Locally, $3.45-$3.55 depending station and it's location. As for CA gas prices, Taxes, regulation, formulation, and the fact that CA can't import gasoline from other states...

[Brian Elfert]

California isn't the only area with specialized gas formulations. Almost every large metro area has a special gas blend for at least part of the year. The dozens of different formulations are why the EPA really needs to come up with one or maybe two formulations that would work nationwide. If a refinery makes a special formula gas for Minneapolis they can't necessarily sell that gas in Milwaukee or Chicago because the formulations for those cities may be different.

Natural gas cars would penalize those who live further north and actually heat our houses with natural gas. Greater demand will almost certainly increase prices.

[Gary Max]

One thing for sure---if the price of gas jumped to $4.65 a gallon here----the streets would be empty.

[Larry Whitlow]

Average price for regular unleaded is almost $4.66. I use premium grade. Live less than 10 miles from a refinery. A couple of months ago I looked into a 4 cyl tacoma. If it had a little more power going uphill, I would have made the trade.

[Richard McComas]

In Anchorage Alaska gas is 4.00-4.50 depending on the Station. In Barrow Alaska gas is a 8.97

on the new this morning they said in VENEZUELA you can fill up a full sized SUV for under 3.00

[Greg Peterson]

Two technologies are going to change the way we relate to our automobiles.

Autonomous vehicles and electric motors.

The technology allowing for autonomous automobiles is here, in use and legal. Gov. Brown recently signed a bill into law permitting autonomous vehicles on California roads. The law currently requires a person sit behind the wheel as a safety precaution, but thus far the record log on autonomous cars indicates that it works and that it is safe.

Volvo, Mercedes, GM are but a few of the manufacturers developing the technology. Google has logged over 300,000 miles on their autonomous fleet without a single accident. Enough vehicles are on the market now, with more to come in the near future, that after market suppliers are offering remanufactured electric steering components. Electric steering is here to stay.

My thought is that one of the first logical applications of the autonomous car will be taxi fleets. Similarly, services will arrive where people can sign up for a car on demand, whether it be an ad hock request or regularly scheduled use (commuting, church, school..). One could sit down and plan out their pickup service for the coming month and think nothing more of it. On the date and time of the scheduled pick up, the person simply step out their door and walk to the awaiting vehicle.

Another technology that will change the way we think of and use our vehicles is electric. Despite their name recently being used as an example of a failing green company, Tesla is alive and doing quite well. They recently announced a fueling network that will dramatically increase the practical range of their vehicles. Many stations are in place now, with the goal of having these stations placed all across the country. These stations will provide free recharges for their vehicles. The caveat is that it will take about thirty minutes to recharge. Thirty minute break for each three hour stretch of driving does not seem to terribly inconvenient.

I hope Ford, GM, Toyota are taking note.

The charging stations are solar powered, so no natural gas, coal, hydro or nuclear fuel is used to generate the recharge.

Electric cars would more than meet the needs of the majority of commuters. Put a solar panel on you house, a storage cell and you're done buying gasoline. At $4/gallon, the ROI is pretty quick.

Anyway, it's past time to rethink how and why we use automobiles.

[David Weaver]

Not sure have we "have so much propane", as it's derived from oil, and the price of propane doesn't support the notion. Natural gas is an option, but I'm not sure we want California hooked on it.... it's not real cheap now... I can only see the price going up if CA. gets addicted to it.

As for electric cars your right, no, it's not an answer as we have no way to charge them if there were a big shift to 100% chargable electrics. We can't produce the power necessary to charge them.

Two weeks, we saw $3.35 for 87 octane just across the border in Tennessee, it had risen to $3.45 when we stopped there on the way back a few days later. Locally, $3.45-$3.55 depending station and it's location. As for CA gas prices, Taxes, regulation, formulation, and the fact that CA can't import gasoline from other states...

Propane is also a byproduct of the natural gas industry. But you'd only burn it as much as you'd get it as a byproduct of the natural gas industry. California may not have local supplies of natural gas, but it sure could be piped in from the midwest, or they could be left to struggle on their own with oil. In the northeast, natural gas is shipped in during peak months (geology in the northeast isn't favorable for pipelines like we have south of new england).

It is the only viable option right now as an inexpensive alternative to liquid fuels. Biofuels, battery powered cars, etc, are not viable. Natural gas here is gasping for a consumer, and so far it's putting coal plants aside for electric generation, but there's far more potential for output in the marcellus and utica shales. Those are just the local ones here.

[Brian Elfert]

Natural gas this year has already increased 50% in price this year from a low of $2.00 per MMBTU in March to over $3.00 per MMBTU today. If natural gas is looking for customers why has the price increased 50% this year? Every time I turn around another coal plant is converting to natural gas.

I would strongly consider a CNG car if fueling stations existed, but I think natural gas is going to increase quite a bit in price as more power plants convert and more people use it for motor fuel.

[David Weaver]

You do realize a million BTUs is 9 times the amount of BTUs in a gallon of gasoline, right? What's the wholesale cost of a million BTUs of gasoline.

Here, at least, we have idle contracts and halted plans to drill because the price is too low. It's sold by cubic feet here, and a thousand cubic feet was $14 when I moved into my house 7 years ago. It's now $4, and that's the retail price. The port price in that time, or wellhead, whatever you'd call it probably is more like $12 to $2.

The drilling companies here would love it if we could find someone to buy more. It has singlehandedly propped up this region financially, but it would do a lot better if we could find more consumers. When it's about a ninth of the wholesale cost of gasoline per BTU we have a lot of room to go.

There's essentially no hope of gasoline coming down because oil is too portable, and can easily just be shipped to another economy.

[Brian Elfert]

The wholesale price of gasoline is about 8.5 times the price of natural gas for the same number of BTUs. With fuel taxes, natural gas should sell at retail for at most $1 per gallon equiv. From the research I did a while back CNG sells for closer to $1.50 retail and I don't know if that includes fuel taxes.

[Larry Whitlow]

Propane is also a byproduct of the natural gas industry. But you'd only burn it as much as you'd get it as a byproduct of the natural gas industry. California may not have local supplies of natural gas, but it sure could be piped in from the midwest, or they could be left to struggle on their own with oil. In the northeast, natural gas is shipped in during peak months (geology in the northeast isn't favorable for pipelines like we have south of new england).

It is the only viable option right now as an inexpensive alternative to liquid fuels. Biofuels, battery powered cars, etc, are not viable. Natural gas here is gasping for a consumer, and so far it's putting coal plants aside for electric generation, but there's far more potential for output in the marcellus and utica shales. Those are just the local ones here.

Natural gas is in widespread use in California. Most of it is piped in from other states or Canada. Residential heating, for all intents and purposes, is by natural gas. In my life I've never seen an oil-fired anything in a residence. I've always wondered why there are very few basements in single family dwellings in California. Maybe that is why?

[Brian Kent]

There is a huge difference between the typical cost of gas in California and the cost this week. Today the governor signed an order to allow use of "winter gas" immediately. This will be the big test to see if the gas companies are telling the truth. If so, this will cancel the effect of the immediate refinery problems. I bought my last tank around a week ago for about $3.69 per gallon. I am watching for it to return to this price.
Our summer gas issue is for a specific reason. Because of the density of traffic here and the shape of mountains and directions of winds, we have natural basins that make air unbreathable. I am very thankful for all that people have innovated that allows me and my family to breathe well.

[Brian Elfert]

Natural gas is in widespread use in California. Most of it is piped in from other states or Canada. Residential heating, for all intents and purposes, is by natural gas. In my life I've never seen an oil-fired anything in a residence. I've always wondered why there are very few basements in single family dwellings in California. Maybe that is why?

Fuel oil is used to heat houses all over the northeast part of the USA. There are even people in Minnesota who heat with fuel oil although most use natural gas or propane. My guess is the northeast uses fuel oil because oil was first tapped there in Pennsylvania. Fuel oil for a long time was essentially a byproduct of refining oil and was dirt cheap. Diesel didn't come into wide use until the 70s or so.

[David Weaver]

Fuel oil is used in new england especially, and a lot of the northeast, because the soil doesn't allow for easy placement of gas lines everywhere. There's quite a bit of territory in the northeast that you'd have to blast your way through to run a pipeline. I believe in peak months, natural gas is brought to boston by ship. Fuel oil is the logical convenience replacement for coal and wood, which were the most common fuels here when my dad was a kid. Almost every farm had a coal stoker and supplemented with wood when it was available from fencerows or as the product of having a lot of kids. Non farm houses often used wood with a backup oil furnace, limiting the use fo the furnace whenever possible. That went out the window when oil got cheap in the 80s. We stopped heating with wood at that time, and so did a lot of other people we knew. No reason to go to the trouble when oil at the time was less than a dollar a gallon.

There still is no gas line (still isn't) where my parents live in central PA, despite the fact that there is a gas substation a half mile away. California probably does not use oil because most of the populated areas are newer and there's nothing difficult about running pipelines there.

I still don't know why people in minnesota and michigan are forced to use propane, I guess population in the northern areas is too sparse for gas. I'd hate to buy residential propane in a really cold area.

Fleet vehicles here in the city are starting to run on propane because it's just "there" as a result of the natural gas industry here (starting with taxis and garbage truck) . The overall cost of operation is about half of the cost of gasoline on a pre-tax basis. They are a good starting point because they start their route at the same place and end it at the same place, so fueling is convenient.