Questions finishing QSWO dresser

[Chip Harlow]

Just about at the finishing stage of a QSWO dresser and have run into a couple of questions I can't seem to find answers on. Planning on a finishing schedule of:
spray with water, let dry, sand lightly w/ 320

apply tanstint

apply Seal a Cell, dry, and sand w/320 (Question - I've seen Arm R Seal and Shellac used at this step - why would I use one vs the other??? Pros Cons)

Apply GF gel Stain

Apply P&L38 Satin (Question - I've seen where it's good practice to use gloss first. Why? One coat, multiple except top, again Why? Can one use Satin all the way? Perhaps a first coat of shellac, then P&L38?

Just trying to clear up some finer details when it comes to the finishing process. All finish is being done by hand. Thanks for any/all responses!!!

Chip

[ben searight]

Arm R Seal is a top coat, you wouldn't want to use it to seal your transtint. Seal A Cell is probably a better choice than shellac as it won't move the dye, Transtint is alcohol soluble. The purpose behind using gloss for all coats except the last is it doesn't have flattening agents which can cloud the finish when built up to a thick coat.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Here is what I do - and I do a lot of this. Just completed a dining room - table, 4 side chairs, 2 arm chairs, three side tables. That is just this year's example. Been at this for dog years.

First of all, I resigned from the "pre-raise the grain" club some time ago - but I was an acolyte for some years before that. IMO - just IMO, guys - it is a complete waste of time, because you are going after it with water-based dye, which defeats the purpose. Plus - you will be scuff sanding at various steps in the process, and any wayward fibers will get whacked along the way. Save your time. Understand: I am a charter member of the I Hate Sanding More Than Anything Else Club..............so take it for what it's worth.

Dye - use transfast powder in water, not the transtint solution. Why? because the transfast powder has much less "lift" when you put on the seal coat. I learned this a few years ago. Nice inventory of the transtint that almost never gets used.........oh, well, live and learn.

Wait 24 hours.

Very light scuff sand with Norton 3X 320. This takes back any raised grain/fibers, and will slightly enhance the ray flecks - it all depends on how hard you sand. I put pressure on the heel of my hand, and essentially only the weight of my fingers - no pressure - on the paper. Carefully and completely blow the sanding dust out of hte pores with compressed air. Take your time, and do a very detailed job - you will see the pores magically open up as the dust leaves. WATCH THE EDGES............you have been warned.

3/4# Shellac seal coat. 1# is OK - and is easy to get close to with Zinnser Seal Coat cut 50/50. I make my own from ultra pale flakes, and I always have a variety of mixed shellacs on the shelf, so I grab something close. Just yesterday, all I had mixed was 2#, so I cut it 50/50 by eye. No big difference, IMO. Very forgiving.

Wait 4 hours. Very light sanding with 3M 216U 600g. Blow out the pores again.

GF Gel stain to fill the deep pores. Application rag in one hand, and wipe off rag[s] in the other. Wipe it on, with a bit of attention to working it into the grain, but no need to wait at all - I follow right behind the applicator rag with a wipe-off rang in my left hand - try your best to wipe off in a cross-grain or circular pattern, to minimize any pull out of the pores. I don't be screwing around on this step - I hustle, because I want to keep the gel stain color from having any more than the bare minimum color impact on the ray flecks. The stuff will be left behind in the pores, which is the objective, and will setup without letting it sit before wipe-off.

3/4# shellac seal coat again. No need to sand after this coat - waste of time. You will smooth is out in the varnish process.

Tee up your varnish.

I am using the #38 for the first time right this minute - on curly maple. Seems very nice - there are definite differences in application from the Behlen's I am used to, but that is simply getting used to the difference in chemistry.

On the "gloss first" thing: Here is the logic as explained to me. All varnish is gloss, by definition and chemistry. You get semi-gloss and satin by adding ceramic fillers that obstruct the reflected light rays, and only the very last coat is going to do that work for you - the light rays are scrambled well before they get through the final coat.. The thinking goes that if you use satin for all of your layers, you are building up multiple film layers of the fillers, which will "muddy" the depth and clarity.

I always do it that way when circumstances out of my control [read: clients with checkbooks] required a satin or semi-gloss. It is pretty dang difficult to sell the cost of rubbing out a dining room table, so the options are restricted to a non-gloss varnish.

However - in all honesty, I am not completely convinced about the "satin on the last coat only". But - that's what I do. Because that's what I have always done [the world's worst excuse] and because I tend to have gloss for a lot of projects, and the satin is in the house only by special order..............and I don't need to inventory it.

Finally - FWIW - go to Homestead Finishing. At the top, click on Articles. Read the Mission Oak Finishing article. Jeff does a good job here....in fact, this site and his book were my reference points when I started this craziness all those years ago. I think I have swerved slightly off the rails as described by Jeff - but that's just me.

[Chip Harlow]

Thanks Kent

What is the difference between using Seal A Cell and shellac?

Why do you use a seal coat of shellac on top of the gel stain? Wouldn't the P&L38 do the same thing/achieve the same purpose?

Another question if I may. Thoughts on applying at least one coat to inside surfaces of the dresser, and inside surfaces of the drawers, and underneath surface of the top? Choice of finish for these surfaces?

Thanks again

Chip

[Kent A Bathurst]

Chip:

Zero experience with Seal A Cell. No help.

The seal coat on top of the gel stain may well be overkill. I have just developed the habit of using 1 coat dewaxed 3/4# ultra pale after any and all color layers. It locks it in, a nd is compatible wit all following finish coats.

My personal approach to the "undersides" or "insides" of finished hardwood components:

First, I only "round the corners" with dye/stain to the point that the external visuals are correct. If the client for my recent dining table lays on their back and skootches under the table, it looks like hell. If they are going to do that, then I raise the price because I don't want to hear about it. I'm not changing my methods, I am just charging a "gimme a freakin' break" penalty. Never did that, but I have threatened it. End of conversation.

Next - shellac has good moisture-barrier properties. I ALWAYS match the number of shellac seal coats on all surfaces. In the scheme I described above, that means 2 coats of 3/4# on the non-show surfaces.

Then - and this may have no scientific basis - let's say that on a typical piece, I use 3 brush-on coats of Behlen's for the show surfaces, except 5 coats on the high-use surfaces. On the non-show surfaces, I will put on 2 coats - no sanding, no nothing, I don't care how smooth it is. I just want a "comparable" finish on all sides.

On drawer boxes - the only thing I will use is shellac. Period. Same for, say, the interior of a blanket chest. The odor from varnishes will last a long, long time - even though it is cured - as it continues to outgas. Shellac is evaporative, not reactive, so once the DNA has flashed, you simply have a non-toxic film left behind.

Except - on the rare occasion when I am painting something, I will use milk paint on drawer surfaces - would rather go with shellac, but the client's checkbook sometimes thinks otherwise.

[ben searight]

The difference between using shellac and Seal A Cell is, shellac is alcohol soluble, so is the transtint dye you are using. Since you're not spraying the piece, when you try to brush the shellac it will redisolve the dye and move it around the surface. This will cause uneven streaks in the finish. You can spray a light coat of shellac without much problem, but you won't be able to brush or pad it on. Seal A Cell is oil based so it will not disolve the transtint. If you do use shellac make sure it's dewaxed and spray a light coat.

[Prashun Patel]

Are you using the GF Gel stain as a glaze or to really provide the major color for the piece? If the former, then sealing is a good idea. If the latter, and if the GF is oil based, then you might impede absorption using a sealer. Just put the GF right over the dye, then you can go straight to the P&L. The alcohol from the dye would have raised the grain a tad bit, but wait until yr a coat or two into the P&L b4 sanding.

FWIW, I've applied oil based stains right over dye - unsealed - with little to no problem. If you do get minor lifting and moving, it's not noticeable, since there's a top color to mask it all anyway. The dye then becomes a base color only.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The difference between using shellac and Seal A Cell is, shellac is alcohol soluble, so is the transtint dye you are using. Since you're not spraying the piece, when you try to brush the shellac it will redisolve the dye and move it around the surface. This will cause uneven streaks in the finish. You can spray a light coat of shellac without much problem, but you won't be able to brush or pad it on. Seal A Cell is oil based so it will not disolve the transtint. If you do use shellac make sure it's dewaxed and spray a light coat.

Not entirely accurate, Ben, based on my experience. Sorry. I have to differ:

In the past, I frequently used Transtint, dissolved in water. It can also be dissolved in alcohol, but I don't have spray equipment.

The Transtint would, in fact, "lift" when I used a padding cloth to apply dewaxed shellac, if I did not wait. After, say, 4 hours, a lot of color would lift to the pad. After 2 - 3 days, the lift was significantly minimized to the point that there would be some slight transfer to the padding cloth, but it did not "move around" the workpiece, and was never detrimental, as far as I could tell.

Then, a few years ago, I switched to Transfast powder dissolved in water. It exhibits almost zero lift, if left to dry for 4 - 8 hours.

In either case, a light pass with Zinsser aerosol shellac entirely eliminates the problem.

And yet - I still have Transtint in some colors that have not been duplicated in the Transfast, and I will still use it. In fact, I am at the moment varnishing a pair of curly maple table tops that were dyed with Transtint Dark Vintage Maple....IIRC, I applied the dye in the evening and then padded the shellac first thing the next morning. Very big $$$ on the curly maple, but I had no qualms about this approach and there was very little lift to the pad - certainly did not move around the tops.

Hall Tables - 79.jpg

Hall Tables - 73.jpg

[ben searight]

With some of the lighter colors I've had success doing as you suggest, but anything with a darker color has always streaked. It wasn't horrible, but still bad enough to bother me. It happened to a QSWO bed I made that had been dyed at least a month before I sealed it. My sprayer crapped out on me and when I got tired of waiting around trying to decide which one to buy, I tried padding it. The streaking wasn't bad on the large flat parts such as the rails but was pretty visible in the corners where you just can't move as fast.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I just think Chip would have an easier time with the Seal A Cell.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ah, well..........there we go. I see one point - 99% of my stuff is finished as components, and then assembled - precisely because I don't have spray gear, nor room for it. And I am not even up to mediocre in my brush skills into corners, etc.

The padding cloth applicator works ducky for the parts. The curly maple was literally just today's example. I also did the same with a very deep reddish-brown on QSWO repro bookcases. While the Transtint lift onto the pad was a bit more noticeable in than with the lighter-toned vinaget maple, it was still very manageable, in my experience.

Looks like you got jammed up, and moved in a new direction. Sorry it did not work out for you.

I think we can agree on this - no problems if you spray shellac seal coat - the Zinsser can works fine. Also - if you use the Transfast powder, there is nothing to worry about. My use of the transtint has been very limited over the past 4+ years, because of the potential for color lift if I don't wait a few days - which I hate doing. I used it this time because - kinda like you - I didn't want to wait around to get one lousy oz of the powder.

[ben searight]

Personally, I would use the zinsser spray can as well. My brushing skills are far south of mediocre.