Entry level laser - being quoted very high.

[Scott Shepherd]

Like I said, the sales people that are answering that phone call and taking all your questions and showing you demos have to get paid from something. Do you think it makes sense for them to spend all their time for free? So how much should a rep make? $50,000 a year? $75,000 a year? $100,000 a year?

The model has been for some time that the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!

You are free to shop all around.

I just don't agree with posting prices on the internet. Like I said, you wouldn't want YOUR prices posted on the internet, so why is okay to post their price?

You don't have to like it, but I can promise you one thing- keep this up and the prices are going to go up, not down, because NO ONE is going to want their lowest price stuck on the internet because then they'll have to give that to everyone. Maybe they like you. Maybe they went to the same school you did. Maybe they are just trying to meet a sales goal, so they let one go through cheap. What do they get for that? Penalized, because from that point on, as soon as it's on the internet, then they'll have to try and explain to everyone that calls about it why they gave you a low price.

I understand the motive, but I think there are things that are going to happen as result of this if it keeps up. If you're the guy that posted that low, low price, and you need help, do you really think they'll EVER give you a low price again? No way.

I've said it about 5 times now. If you wouldn't want your confidential quoting information put on the internet, then why it okay to put theirs?

And sure, they all know the base cost of each others machines, but I can assure you one thing, when someone is actively looking for a quote and they post a price, the other dealers had no knowledge of that price. Now they will. So where before, you had 3 people honestly quoting against each other, blindly, you'll now have 2 of the 3 with information that makes the original quote pointless.

Would you want your quotes put online so your competitor in the town you live in could just log in, look up your quote, and then beat your quote? I know I wouldn't. It would mean I'd probably never ever get another job.

This forum existed for the last 5 or 6 years without posting actual quoted prices, I'm not sure why it's needed now, other than a few people wanting to know. All of it can be done via private messaging and keeping it off of public forums.

The net result is it's going to hurt the dealers and when it hurts the dealers, who's going to pay? Us or them? I can promise you one thing, in the end, it'll hurt all of us.

[Ronald Erickson]

I have never posted confidential quote information. I do have integrity. All the quotes that I have received that I have been asked not to publish have not been published. The "list price" quotes I received were never regarded as confidential. I realize you may not be questioning my integrity, but I felt the need to make this specific point.

I actually DO plan to post my prices on the internet. Here's what I sell and here are my prices. It's all pretty simple. If I don't price accordingly, I wont sell the product. Why would I be offended if someone else sells the product and beats my price? I can either adjust my pricing, or offer other services to stay competitive. I'm not going to offer my goods and services at a loss, and neither would a laser manufacturer. That is also true of distributors... if a distributor can't make money selling a product then they would stop being a distributor for that product.

You wouldn't by chance be a distributor for some product, would you Steve? It would certainly expain your position about keeping prices hidden. I can certainly respect your opinion, but it doesn't coincide with the market trends in this day and age. Just take a look around at all the people doing price shopping with their smart phones this holiday.

Retailers must adopt to the changes consumers are forcing upon them or risk going out of business. But raising prices "because everyone knows them" won't work unless the entire market of laser manufacturers do the same thing. But that would only leave the market prime for a new manufacturer to come in and capture their market share.

As far as keeping the information off The Creek... I would bet money that the pricing post I made has actually ATTRACTED new people to The Creek who are specifically looking for information pertaining to the prices of laser equipment. Some of those people may even become contributors and help The Creek to grow. In fact, the person who originated this thread may have been attracted here during a google of "Trotec price" (2nd hit on google is The Creek). I doubt that's a bad thing. . I didn't even know Trotec existed before I found out about them on The Creek and it was due to the actions of The Creek members that Trotec was successful in selling me a laser. Had I not posted the information, they would not have made the sale.

We disagree on whether pricing should be shared, and that's ok.

[James A. Wolfe]

Seems to be a lot of hand wringing over small potatoes. Pricing competition has existed since commerce began and suppliers adjust as they see fit in order to retain market share. Some manufacturers offer their products directly to the consumer and through their distributors effectively becoming competitors. If one manufacturer jacks up his prices because of someone getting a price quote on the Creek, I'm sure the other manufacturers will be happy to step up and lower their prices to capture market share. The term "Tempest in a Teapot" comes to mind.

[Glen Monaghan]

So how much should a rep make? $50,000 a year? $75,000 a year? $100,000 a year?

Don't know, don't care, not our problem, and the question is a red herring anyway.

I just don't agree with posting prices on the internet. Like I said, you wouldn't want YOUR prices posted on the internet, so why is okay to post their price?

People have repeatedly compared buying lasers to buying cars, where "the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!". As you almost certainly know, there is an entire secondary industry to provide dealer costs, regional costs, and suggested "good deals" to car buyers for much the same reasons that laser buyers want to know what "good deals" are. And that certainly hasn't killed the auto industry.

NO ONE is going to want their lowest price stuck on the internet because then they'll have to give that to everyone.

How do you figure? Companies frequently offer sales, publicized or not (such as the trade show prices recently discussed at large, supermarket weekly deals, electronics companies' Black Friday specials, etc ad nauseum) and they certainly DO NOT give those prices to anyone anytime thereafter. Other laser shoppers have recently reported being told in no uncertain terms that they most certainly could NOT get the trade show deal without actually attending the show, nor could they get that price after the show. It is also normal to have a disclaimer on an offer stating who the offer is for and the time frame during which it is valid.

they let one go through cheap. What do they get for that? Penalized, because from that point on, as soon as it's on the internet, then they'll have to try and explain to everyone that calls about it why they gave you a low price.

Nothing new there. Dealers in every business I've dealt with have been happy to tell me why I can't get the same price an acquaintance got last week, or the price I got last month, or the price somebody posted on the net, whether it's because that was a limited time promotional price, their costs have risen, they had a year-end quota to meet, their sales are up and inventories are down, or whatever. It's up to the sales reps and their bosses to justify and convince you why their current price is the best they can do for you at this time and why it's in your best interests to take it; it's not our jobs to make it easiest for them to stay in business with highest profits possible.

If you wouldn't want your confidential quoting information put on the internet, then why it okay to put theirs?

I don't have confidential quoting information personally, I think there's something seriously wrong when people/companies resort to trying to hide their actually pricing from public awareness. Tells me they aren't particularly competitive on their own merits. If someone else undercuts them, then they either need to be more competitive or the undercutter isn't going to be able to sustain themselves either. Don't most of the businesses you deal with publish catalogs with price lists? Generally, confidential pricing is reserved for big ticket items that the sellers don't feel like they can adequately justify their markups.

Would you want your quotes put online so your competitor in the town you live in could just log in, look up your quote, and then beat your quote? I know I wouldn't. It would mean I'd probably never ever get another job.

This sort of thing hasn't put any competitive car companies out of business where I live...

I can promise you one thing, in the end, it'll hurt all of us.

Again, it hasn't hurt us with automobiles, audio equipment, computers...

-Glen

[Keith Outten]

The subject of sharing prices has never been discussed here in this detail however it is probably a good time for us to set some guidelines based on the opinions expressed in this thread.

The majority of times we discuss pricing publicly the discussions are based on catalog or advertised prices. The comparison of laser engravers to automobiles isn't quite accurate because cars and trucks have a sticker price on the window and sale prices are frequently advertised in the newspaper or on dealers web sites. Laser engravers are not promoted in this same way, some manufacturers and their distributors prefer an alternate way of doing business and we should respect their right to establish their own policies.

If we put aside our personal preferences for the duration of this conversation I think we would all agree that each company should be allowed to establish their own policies concerning sales and customer negotiations. Ours is a free marketplace which guarantees any business or individual the right to operate in their best interests when it comes to commerce as long as the law of the land is not violated.

When SawMill Creek was established we decided that one of our primary goals would be to try our best to connect vendors with woodworkers. The idea that we would all benefit from an open line of communication isn't new but it has always been a difficult goal for any online community. No matter which side of this debate you stand I think everyone should agree that we need to be respectful of other woodworkers and the same should apply to the companies we purchase machines, tools, materials and services. In that light we should extend our policy prohibiting the posting of private information to include prices that are not advertised.
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[Ross Moshinsky]

Keith,

Just because they want to do something doesn't mean as consumers we have to play by their rules. Their rules are there to benefit them. As consumers, we're supposed to look out for ourselves. Their tactics work so well that no one in this thread has still mentioned a single price. The only explanation for that is fear.

There is absolutely no ethical reason why laser pricing shouldn't be discussed openly. This doesn't mean there aren't issues with discussing the pricing openly but that's for the individuals to determine if it's worth it. It shouldn't be a rule on the site.

[Scott Shepherd]

Don't know, don't care, not our problem, and the question is a red herring anyway.

Why is it a red herring? Because you want to tell someone what they can make or when they are charging too much. These sales reps have to make a paycheck. They do that through selling equipment for a profit.

People have repeatedly compared buying lasers to buying cars, where "the manufacturers set the base price to sell to the dealers. Then, the dealers can mark it up to what they want to mark it up to. They are distributors, that's HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY!". As you almost certainly know, there is an entire secondary industry to provide dealer costs, regional costs, and suggested "good deals" to car buyers for much the same reasons that laser buyers want to know what "good deals" are. And that certainly hasn't killed the auto industry.

I didn't say it killed the auto industry. I said that the pricing model has changed, but their profit remains the same.

How do you figure? Companies frequently offer sales, publicized or not (such as the trade show prices recently discussed at large, supermarket weekly deals, electronics companies' Black Friday specials, etc ad nauseum) and they certainly DO NOT give those prices to anyone anytime thereafter. Other laser shoppers have recently reported being told in no uncertain terms that they most certainly could NOT get the trade show deal without actually attending the show, nor could they get that price after the show. It is also normal to have a disclaimer on an offer stating who the offer is for and the time frame during which it is valid.

Sure, take that approach, but when people gave the "trade show pricing", a handful of people cried foul. So it's okay to have a sale everywhere else, but not in the laser industry, I guess.

Nothing new there. Dealers in every business I've dealt with have been happy to tell me why I can't get the same price an acquaintance got last week, or the price I got last month, or the price somebody posted on the net, whether it's because that was a limited time promotional price, their costs have risen, they had a year-end quota to meet, their sales are up and inventories are down, or whatever. It's up to the sales reps and their bosses to justify and convince you why their current price is the best they can do for you at this time and why it's in your best interests to take it; it's not our jobs to make it easiest for them to stay in business with highest profits possible.

I don't suggest that it is. What I do know for a fact is what has happened to one line of lasers. They did just what some of you are suggesting and it basically took all the loyal, great reps, the one's that are head and shoulders above the rest and punished them financially. I've personally been told "I've already got too much time in this issue and I'm losing money now. From this point forward, you'll have to call the factory and sort it out yourself". Is that really the model you want? It's not the model I want. So taking away all the profit from the reps so everyone can have Wal-Mart style pricing does nothing but cost ALL of us service and support at some level. I've seen it happen in this industry already. I'd hate to see it happen more.

You wouldn't by chance be a distributor for some product, would you Steve? It would certainly expain your position about keeping prices hidden.

Ron, you, and anyone else, is welcome in my shop any day. I've never been, and still am not, a distributor for any manufacturer. I get paychecks from no manufacturers. Am I passionate about this business? Absolutely!

[Rodne Gold]

My opinion is that a ban on pricing discussion is counterproductive.
I think the prime function of this forum is one user helping another in the spirit of philanthropy and altruism and not protection of vendors.
Pricing or affordability is a vital part of the decision making process when considering a laser , so why would we be imparting all our best and in depth knowledge to forumites in all other departments barring price?

[James A. Wolfe]

Well said Mr. Gold. Let's not forget who "owns" the forum and to whom its benefits should accrue.
Jim

[Ronald Erickson]

In that light we should extend our policy prohibiting the posting of private information to include prices that are not advertised.
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Could you (or anyone) please direct me to where I can find the policy/rules section of the forum? I've read the terms of service and the FAQ, but I haven't come across the policy and rules for posting section of the forum (and I've spent the past hour searching). I'm probably just not seeing it so I'd be grateful for any assistance in finding it.

[Mark Winlund]

Counterproductive? Idiotic. If you are going to ban discussions of price, why not extend the ban to prices we charge for products made with the laser? Capitalism is all about competition, and competition includes pricing. Competition almost always improves quality and reduces cost. People who are not willing to compete go out of business.

Mark

[Bill Cunningham]

I'm curious about laser pricing for the simple reason is that I will have to replace mine in a couple of years. I will in all probability buy another Epilog, so knowing the general prices now, will tell me what I have to expect in a couple of years. Virtually everything in electronics has decreased in price, or vastly increased in capabilities over the last 10-20 years. Lasers have done both, and I fully expect this trend to continue. If I know that in 2 years I'm going to have to cough up 25-30k for a new machine, I will certainly expect to get more machine for my money than was available 10 years ago. With this information, I can plan both my future financing and shop space availability. Without this vital information, I'm just guessing and/or depending on only one source of pricing information with no room for a fair negotiation for either side. When it comes to price, fore warned is fore armed, let the negotiations begin!

[Scott Shepherd]

I can plan both my future financing and shop space availability. Without this vital information, I'm just guessing and/or depending on only one source of pricing information with no room for a fair negotiation for either side. When it comes to price, fore warned is fore armed, let the negotiations begin!

It's really simple.....you call the laser manufacturers and ask for quotes.

Yes, things have changed a lot. We paid roughly the same for our 75W Trotec as our 45W Epilog, and our 45W Universal. So time does make a big difference. For what you paid back then, you can probably get 75-80W now.

[Ronald Erickson]

Banning pricing discussions means we have to ban threads like http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...nit-for-lt-200 for the simple reason that General Carbon, the provider of the activated charcoal discussed in this thread, does not publish the prices of the activated carbon they sell. How can you have a "build a custom filter for $xxx" if you don't have the pricing of the components? (BTW, the thread has a lot of great information on building your own filter)

[matthew knott]

I personally hate secret pricing, all the manufactures have a bottom price that they wont go below, and and unpublished RRP, the sales guy will then try to get the maximum he can out of people. If that's how they want to play it, fair enough, but i don't think they have the right to keep these prices secret. If someone buys a laser its up to them if they publish the price, even if they are asked to keep it quiet. I know its hard for the sales guys, but that's what the internet has done, information overload, people are better connected. I would take a guess that the manufactures will fire off (if not already) email asking for any posts with pricing to be removed, as they sponsor the sight this will be done! Its normal form chain off events. Forum starts, group of like minded people gather, a company wants to sell something to all these people, they advertise, then if anything is posted negative about them they can flex their muscles as they pay. I think as long as its not libelous or untrue it should be ok to publish, but thats just my opinion.