BE Maple Finish - How was this done....Anyone???

[sheldon pettit]

Hi Dave, sorry, i forgot to mention that the FS should dry overnight to get the best performance. Any time you use chemical dyes or enhancers, etc., they should be left to dry much longer than dyes, not that your not getting good results, just that it could be better ok? I'll have to leave it up to you on what colors you prefer i don't feel it's good to include me or my preferences on this, It most definitely is the viewers/owners concept of what they wish to obtain as an end color, so keep playing with it till your completely satisfied with the end results [with all the coatings on the samples you plan on using] and go from there ok?

By the time you actually start using the real project wood, you should have a clear concept of what you need to achieve such.

[Dave Fairfax]

thanks Chemmy.

I do have a question, a rather important one. Could you give me a good website/online shop where I can get a good platinum shellac. I have not found much online, and the ones that I have are sold out. Thanks.

and thanks for the tip on drying. I also ordered some more test pieces today and I got some that are lighter and more likely to be closer to the real order. I want to get used to it. I have some questions on the veneer process, I will check in tomorrow. Thanks.

[sheldon pettit]

Dave i have mostly used the same site i gave you for the FS, http://www.woodfinishingenterprises....s/shellac.html They have platinum only they call it or refer to it as German made

12-1302-

DEWAXED ULTRA LIGHT SHELLAC (GERMAN)

14.80

24.60

41.00

You can't get better shellac than this, unless you by your own Kusmi seed or button lac and process it yourself. which of course i do when ever i need some
I would be surprised to find out there out of it, but since i have not bought any in quite awhile, i could be wrong. If so, see if they have the next lightest German lac and purchase it, there is little difference, color-wise, between the two. Worse case scenario and only if you have to use the platina or super-blonde Indian lacs use the shelf life is only half as good at best, but in a pinch will work just as well. . Yes, you can find cheaper lacs on varying sites for sure, but you won't find a better product, especially the German ones.

12-1300-	DEWAXED EXTRA LIGHT SHELLAC (GERMAN)		14.00	23.40	39.00	177.30
12-1301-	DEWAXED SUPER LIGHT SHELLAC (GERMAN)		14.40	24.00	40.00	181.80
12-1302-	DEWAXED ULTRA LIGHT SHELLAC (GERMAN)		14.80	24.60	41.00	186.40
12-1303-	DEWAXED BLONDE SHELLAC (GERMAN)		13.70	22.80	38.00	172.70
12-1304-	DEWAXED HONEY BLONDE SHELLAC (GERMAN)		13.30	22.20	37.00	168.20
12-1310-	DEWAXED GOLDEN ORANGE SHELLAC (GERMAN)		13.00	21.60	36.00	163.60
12-1311-	DEWAXED PLATINA SHELLAC (INDIAN)		12.00	19.90	33.20	150.90
12-1312-	DEWAXED SUPER BLONDE SHELLAC (INDIAN)		11.70	19.60	32.60	148.20
12-1313-	DEWAXED BLONDE SHELLAC (INDIAN)		11.60	19.30	32.20	146.40
12-1315-	DEWAXED LEMON SHELLAC (INDIAN)		11.50	19.10	31.90	145.00
12-1316-	DEWAXED ORANGE SHELLAC (INDIAN)		10.50	17.60	29.30	133.20
12-1320-	DEWAXED GARNETLAC (INDIAN)		9.40	15.70	26.20	119.10
12-1330-	SUPERIOR KUSMI ORANGE SHELLAC (WAXY)		9.30	15.50	25.90	117.70
12-1340-	#1 LEMON SHELLAC (WAXY)		8.60	14.30	23.80	108.20
12-1360-	SUPERFINE ORANGE SHELLAC (WAXY)		8.20	13.60	22.70	103.20
12-1370-	#2 KUSMI BUTTONLAC		9.90	16.60	27.60	125.50
12-1375-	#1 KUSMI BUTTONLAC		10.90	18.20	30.40	138.20
12-1380-	T.N. ORANGE SHELLAC (WAXY)		8.30	13.80	23.00	104.50

Personally, i only use the German or if refining myself, the Kusmi button/ seed-lac lac grade#1But that requires the time and equipment to do so, better off starting with the German types which have anywhere from a 5-7 year shelf-life in their solid form as purchased, compared to the Indian lacs 2-3 years at most, ok?

Later Dave.....................

[Dave Fairfax]

On the subject of Veneer.

It is a raw wood Veneer that I will be getting. The panels will be 20" x 14" using a substrate of MDF. The plan right now is to use a Cold Press Glue. But this is all new to me, so I would appreciate your take on it. The panels will be the inset of the wainscoting running the perimeter of the room. So it will not be something that is touched very often if at all. The room is my Dedicated Home Theater, which will have very little traffic.

The specific glue is this ....http://www.veneersupplies.com/produc...or-Medium.html

I may build a vacuum press or simply use this method . Method 1 - http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...-veneering.htm

I just ordered the Shellac, thank you for the reference.

[sheldon pettit]

On the subject of Veneer.

It is a raw wood Veneer that I will be getting. The panels will be 20" x 14" using a substrate of MDF. The plan right now is to use a Cold Press Glue. But this is all new to me, so I would appreciate your take on it. The panels will be the inset of the wainscoting running the perimeter of the room. So it will not be something that is touched very often if at all. The room is my Dedicated Home Theater, which will have very little traffic.

The specific glue is this ....http://www.veneersupplies.com/produc...or-Medium.html

I may build a vacuum press or simply use this method . Method 1 - http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...-veneering.htm

I just ordered the Shellac, thank you for the reference.

LOL - Well....... on the subject of glues and adhesives i could take up a small book on the pro's and con's, but to keep it as brief and simple as possible, "glues" are natural substances, "adhesives" are synthetics, This in a nutshell distinguishes the two. Glues for woodwork are mainly made of animal skin/hides/bone/etc.. Adhesives are everything else including PVA types, epoxies, contact cements, cyanoacrylates,2 part types like resorcinol and urea's, and many others.

Most of the modern synthetics and especially the contact types and PVA types are bad choices, and even the one's that are better choices such as the water proof or water resistant ones like resorcinol and urea have there own flaws to deal with. This however does not mean they are not incredibly good adhesives for the intended purposes, they are, but once fully cured [30 days or more] they are for all practical purposes unrepairable, unlike the old natural glue stand-byes. With this explained in brief, for your job, seeing as you will be wetting the wood quite a bit and more than once most likely, make sure to use a highly resistant water type or water-proof like 2 part cat urea's or resorcinols ok? If this was furniture you were doing it on then i would instead recommend the hide glues, but yours is more of a decorative application and as stated by you, not something that will receive any type of use as a table top or other such items. Though sometime in the future, if you continue with veneer projects, it will be to your advantage to learn the "Real Deal" >glueing< and application methods. Also don't forget to veneer both sides of your panels to insure AMAP they will not curve ok? This can be done with a cheap or much less expensive wood veneer of the same thickness ok?

I'll leave it up to you as to what type of veneer pressing you want to use, though if your only going to be doing flat surface projects, vacuum bagging is overkill, though it's always nice to have the pump for other things to use on

[Dave Fairfax]

Something like this http://www.veneersupplies.com/produc...ize-5-lbs.html

or this http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/brow...FYqZ4AodAWMAOQ

Im soaking up all of this knowledge you are sharing, I very much appreciate it. I had no idea that this forum could be so beneficial.

When I am set on a dye/FS combination how would you suggest that I finish; French Polishing? When i am applying the dye the veneer looks best when it is wet, how do i get that look with a finish.

I now that I am sold on veneer projects in the future, but right now I am solely focused on finishing the Theater. But the species of exotic veneer are endless it seems.

Here are some of the latest pics, with the Contrasting Walnut



http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

And here are some with some mock panels that I routed. Not the best finish on this walnut as it was a rush job. I just wanted to get a visual of how it would look recessed.

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type...00/height/1000

Would love to hear some feedback, thanks.

[sheldon pettit]

Well, after looking at the first one, i would suggest it instead of the marine. I like the idea of more open time always

As Far as french polishing, that's really up to you, shellac is easy to repair and gives a good durable finish and alot of depth to the wood surfaces, in your case, it would be a good choice, but not the only choice. You would have to tell me more about your state of finishing abilities at present before i could offer other suggestions as to finishing, nitro and acrylic are also good choices but need to be sprayed for pro results for example, so if you have spray experience then they could be a good second choice for sure. If not then your mostly limited to brush-able or wiping coatings, which can more durable than shellac, but much harder to repair and in comparison to FP, never look as nice unless you have alot of experience in using them or again are spraying them. FP is more time consuming to apply than any other method, and takes much longer to be properly learned and applied to it best potential, which is a glass smooth deep liquid looking gloss. But then again you may be looking for a softer sheen like satin? You'll have to get back with more info for me to help you further in this area ok? Also i would need to know if you have a spray booth area and good exhaust and what kind to really dial in what could be best.

Oh, i guess i forgot to tell you, my charge for this help is 500.00 per hour -

As to the color of the wood when wet, no matter what you use to dye/stain with, once it dries out it will look less vibrant. If you spray the panel with a coat of clear or two or more the original look will come back close to the wet appearance. That also brings up the need to always match your color by completing a sample with the coating of choice and as many coats as you need to satisfy your desires in the final look/appearance of the wood[s] ok? There will be subtle shifts of color with every coat that is applied which will affect the end color appearance!! What you believe or think is an end color you like in wet dye, may not be like-able once the entire finishing is done. This is mainly because the solvent/carrier, in this case water but true of all, adds a darkness to the colorants which when evaporated will not look the same. This again "is a must", not a suggestion!! The refraction properties change along with the DOI [distinction of image] and depth and other qualities of the visual looks. You "can not" be successful in color matching without doing this ok? You will fool yourself by just dyeing the wood and nothing else.

Well..... yes there are many species of exotic woods, but more important is that every tree yields different patterns and natural color anomalies that are endless as you can see on your veneer site where the glue is, or many others. That's why no two projects will ever look exactly the same, as close as they may look to most people


Dave, as stated earlier, i cannot comment on your colors over the Internet pics sent, every monitor shows colors differently, even my pics do-not do justice as to what they look like[d] in real life. To me your pics of the walnut have red cast to them on my end and is why i asked earlier if you had used the dye on them, if i saw them in real life i beleive they would be the blue grey of freshly sawn walnut or if aged the yellowish orange that it takes on through oxidation over time, or somewhere in-between, neither is the case in what you sent me. And by the way speaking of walnut color changes, yes it will change it's natural color over time and you can do nothing about it on your end, so be prepared to see this take place ok? Therefore, I'm positive that what I'm seeing on the burl is also redder or oranger than what it really is. So in a nutshell your on your own color-wise as to achieving an amber color for me to view online. If you want to send me actual samples, then that's another story, but i can be of no real help via web-pics ok? Also outside of using acrylic [solvent-base] coatings, as i stated before more color will be added that will shift your color as you proceed to apply clears over the dye.


So for now, that's my input and advice ok?

[Dave Fairfax]

I’ll answer these in parts. I would like to move forward with the French Polishing, however I would prefer that it leans more towards a Satin finish than gloss. I like the gloss better but in a Theater, all of that reflection is not a good thing. If I went with the FP, wouldn’t it be beneficial to do the same with the Walnut. So far with the Walnut, I have only applied several coats of tung. I am open to suggestions on how to proceed with the Walnut. I love the natural color of Walnut and I just want to enhance the grain. I do not have access to a spray booth, so it will be brush or wiping for me.

Oh, i guess i forgot to tell you, my charge for this help is 500.00 per hour -
You should have said 700.00 per hour, I would have paid that. In all seriousness, I hope that I can somehow repay you for your time and thoughtfulness. I would be at ground zero still without your help. It has been more than helpful.

As to the color of the wood when wet, no matter what you use to dye/stain with, once it dries out it will look less vibrant. If you spray the panel with a coat of clear or two or more the original look will come back close to the wet appearance. That also brings up the need to always match your color by completing a sample with the coating of choice and as many coats as you need to satisfy your desires in the final look/appearance of the wood[s] ok? There will be subtle shifts of color with every coat that is applied which will affect the end color appearance!! What you believe or think is an end color you like in wet dye, may not be like-able once the entire finishing is done. This is mainly because the solvent/carrier, in this case water but true of all, adds a darkness to the colorants which when evaporated will not look the same. This again "is a must", not a suggestion!! The refraction properties change along with the DOI [distinction of image] and depth and other qualities of the visual looks. You "can not" be successful in color matching without doing this ok? You will fool yourself by just dyeing the wood and nothing else.
Understood, I had not considered this before. I have some more samples coming in the next day or so. With these I am going to glue them up and finish them like the real thing so that I can do exactly what you are saying above.

Dave, as stated earlier, i cannot comment on your colors over the Internet pics sent, every monitor shows colors differently, even my pics do-not do justice as to what they look like[d] in real life. To me your pics of the walnut have red cast to them on my end and is why i asked earlier if you had used the dye on them, if i saw them in real life i beleive they would be the blue grey of freshly sawn walnut or if aged the yellowish orange that it takes on through oxidation over time, or somewhere in-between, neither is the case in what you sent me. And by the way speaking of walnut color changes, yes it will change it's natural color over time and you can do nothing about it on your end, so be prepared to see this take place ok? Therefore, I'm positive that what I'm seeing on the burl is also redder or oranger than what it really is. So in a nutshell your on your own color-wise as to achieving an amber color for me to view online. If you want to send me actual samples, then that's another story, but i can be of no real help via web-pics ok? Also outside of using acrylic [solvent-base] coatings, as i stated before more color will be added that will shift your color as you proceed to apply clears over the dye.
I am looking for a warm color on the Walnut, not too dark at all. More of a light chocolate color. Once I get some going I would like to send you samples of both Walnut and the Burl. I agree that a picture over the net really is only “starting point”. As it is not what it looks like in front of you. Like I said, I have been using just the Tung oil with the Walnut. I like the look but to be honest it also has to do with my lack of finishing experience.
Having said all of that, I know that I have limited experience with finishing. However, I pick things up really fast and I work tirelessly. I’ll follow your lead on the finishing advice if that’s ok, and I’ll stick to picking the colors/hues.

[sheldon pettit]

You've got a private message dave