Matching new trim to 20 year old

[Glenn Ancona]

Greetings sawmill finishers-

We have a large remodel project going and need a simple color matching solution for the following:
A 20 - 25 year old house with all pine trims that appear like they only have two coats of poly on them and have that " aged poly orange " look. The trims are custom profiles so we would rather not replicate / replace any more than we have to so we are trying to match new and old in the same room. Sampling all the stock colors of stains from the all the usual manufactures yeilds nothing close and would rather stay away from mixing and ratios. The closest we have found is 2 coats of zinnzer amber shellac, its not as orange as the aged poly / pine combo but close. Will it darken a little or a great deal ? Will it or will it catch up and pass the orange tone? I'm getting conflicting info on how quick and how much it will darken over time. Thoughts on other products or dyes are welcome but I dont wanting to make a science experiment out of this. Its new doors and trims we are talking here not furniture.

Thanks for the help - Glenn

[sheldon pettit]

Greetings sawmill finishers-

We have a large remodel project going and need a simple color matching solution for the following:
A 20 - 25 year old house with all pine trims that appear like they only have two coats of poly on them and have that " aged poly orange " look. The trims are custom profiles so we would rather not replicate / replace any more than we have to so we are trying to match new and old in the same room. Sampling all the stock colors of stains from the all the usual manufactures yeilds nothing close and would rather stay away from mixing and ratios. The closest we have found is 2 coats of zinnzer amber shellac, its not as orange as the aged poly / pine combo but close. Will it darken a little or a great deal ? Will it or will it catch up and pass the orange tone? I'm getting conflicting info on how quick and how much it will darken over time. Thoughts on other products or dyes are welcome but I dont wanting to make a science experiment out of this. Its new doors and trims we are talking here not furniture.

Thanks for the help - Glenn

Hi Glenn, Sorry, but no one can tell you for sure how much or how long what your trying to accomplish will or would take. Even pro's would not guarantee such things if they are truly pro's and doing it themselves. I could surely match the color within 95+%, but i would never say or tell you how long it would take to blend in perfectly if at all since the ambering principal of shellac differs from that of poly or varnishes etc.. Even if i knew exactly what brand and type of poly was used 25 years ago, it would still not ever be precisely that color. If another 25 years passed they would be very close but not perfect between the two ok?

If you use dyes in the shellac or other clears you can match closely, but here again, the dyes will fade over time, some color components more than others, and it still will never be a perfect match.

In your situation i would suggest that you strip it all and sand, apply a stain to the new wood that will closely match the original if necessary or needed, and then apply a new finish of choice to all.

Sam / Chemmy

[Glenn Ancona]

Sheldon - My biggest concern is not that I'm 90+% close in color now with the amber shellac. I understand I wont get the color exact but will off the shelf zinnzer darken with age and how much? Even if it darkens 10% I'm still there - I would think so? The question here is: the can says "wont darken with age " but the real questioning started when one of their product techs disputed that phrase and said " all shellacs darken with age till they are deep brown " that would be significant change. Does anyone have a Zinnzes amber shellac thats been on for 10+ years and has not noticed a drastic change such as this ?

Thanks for the input - glenn

[sheldon pettit]

Sheldon - My biggest concern is not that I'm 90+% close in color now with the amber shellac. I understand I wont get the color exact but will off the shelf zinnzer darken with age and how much? Even if it darkens 10% I'm still there - I would think so? The question here is: the can says "wont darken with age " but the real questioning started when one of their product techs disputed that phrase and said " all shellacs darken with age till they are deep brown " that would be significant change. Does anyone have a Zinnzes amber shellac thats been on for 10+ years and has not noticed a drastic change such as this ?

Thanks for the input - glenn

LOL, i have kicked more techs out of my businesses in my 50 year career career than most have ever even delt with. Yes amber shellac will darken over time, no doubts, but it will not go deep brown in your lifetime. To many poeple dealing with re-doing old shellac think wrongly about the color deepning being a natural process of shellac, the truth is the old shellacs on 100+ year old buildings/homes/etc., had small amounts to larger amounts of colophony [pine resin] in them which made for a cheaper product called brown varnish. These shellacs would go almost black over time and seperate into small to large cracks and finally into a maze of tiny to larger islands. Todays refined orange shellac does not darken anywhere near those of past times.

That said, If your color is that close now, [90+%] it will go darker than 10% most likely. For you, the way around this might be to sand and apply one coat of the shellac to the poly to offset this, if it does darken more in 10 years or so. Again it won't ever be a perfect match, but if your happy with 90 then 95 should be no problem with it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Does anyone have a Zinnzes amber shellac thats been on for 10+ years and has not noticed a drastic change such as this ?

I have two houses that were built in 1956.
All the woodwork (pine) was done with orange shellac (I see that Zinsser now calls it "amber").
I touched up some areas in both houses with two coats of Zinsser orange shellac.
It matched perfectly. Perfectly. 100% perfect - as in it's impossible to see where the touched up areas are.

The only real problem I have w/this though is that 20/25 years ago, nobody was using shellac of any kind on new construction.
I sort of doubt what's on there is orange shellac.
Is there ay way to test some of the existing to see if alcohol dissolves it?

Ok - never mind that - I reread the whole thing & see that poly was used.

The only help I can be in that respect is to agree w/Sheldon.
Dye can be added to make a form of toner - but - it's impossible to say how color fast it will be.

[John TenEyck]

If you are happy at 90 - 95% color match then there's no reason to do anything more than you have already done. But if you want it even closer it will be a science project. I would take your amber shellac and dilute it 50% with DNA. Then I would add Transtint dyes to that, probably a combination of red and yellow, until I had the orange hue you are after. Then apply a coat to a sample of your new trim that you prep. the same way you intend to for the installation. Then apply 3 more coats, staggered so that you end up with a board having 1 to 4 coats on it. Now apply your poly topcoat, as many coats as you intend for the trim. Now compare that to your old trim, rinse and repeat until you get a match you are satisfied with. Sorry,there are no shortcuts if you want a really close match.

To make the job a little easier, I make very small batches of the shellac toner. I typically make a 1 ounce batch of the shellac/DNA mix, then I count the drops of Transtint I add. Write it down or you will forget. I've had to make more than 2 dozen specimens sometimes to get the color correct. When you are satisfied, you just scale up your small batch recipe until you have enough toner to do your project.

I you use a water clear topcoat the color of your toner coats won't change much, but if you use a solvent based one it will and that will add another wrinkle the science project. Also, if your topcoat has a good UV stabilizer package in it, the color of your trim won't change much at all for many, many years.

Using toner coats is easiest to do if you spray it on. It can be done with a brush, but spraying is way easier. I have much greater success by spraying on multiple coats until I build up to the final shade, rather than trying to get it perfect with only one coat.

I hope this helps.

John

[Jim Becker]

Keep in mind that the wood, itself, is going to darken over time. If you "match" the color and darkness now with "raw" wood, it's going to end up darker a year or three down the road.

[John TenEyck]

Keep in mind that the wood, itself, is going to darken over time. If you "match" the color and darkness now with "raw" wood, it's going to end up darker a year or three down the road.

If you use a topcoat with a good UV package, the color won't change much for a very long time. For example, I finished a cherry jewelry box with GF Hi Perf. Poly. After about 4 years now, the outside is no darker than the inside. Cherry is notorious for rapidly darkening with exposure to light, yet this piece has not changed. I'd call that pretty good testiment to how effective UV absorbers can be.

John

[Jim Becker]

I generally agree with you, John, but most finishes that have UV inhibitors tend to be exterior finishes. Yes, you can use them, but they may not be the best choice for interior trim work.

[John TenEyck]

Jim, you may be right, but there are interior finishes with good UV packages. The GF Hi Perf. Poly is one that I am very familiar with. It's a pleasure to spray or brush, and the UV inhibitors really work. I think SW also makes a good interior clearcoat with UV inhibitors, but I haven't used it.

For the OP, he's really shooting at a moving target. Even if he gets the color/sheen perfect on his new trim, both the new and old trim will eventually change. Whether or not they change in the same way and at the same time is unknown, but highly doubtful. So you either do the best you can and accept whatever happens, or rip everything out and start over.

John