Advice needed on new Tool purchase

[Norman Hitt]

I am following this thread with interest, as I am in the same boat and need to build a table. Pat Warner got my attention with that thing about not needing a mounting plate, a $200 - $300 expense.

Jay---What about making a tall fence similar to a tennon jig on a table saw, then using vertical panel raising bits? That would let one keep the hole small. Or how about interchangable tops, one with a larger bit opening if one was needed?

Dan

Dan, it has been my experience that the "Vertical Panel Raising bits" just don't cut as easy or clean as the regular panel raising bits, especially at the edges of the profile. As for the $200 to $300 for a router lift, you won't have to spend that much, because one of the nicest ones going IMHO is Woodpecker's "Plunge Lift" for $129.95 (and it has a 3) of those really nice machined inserts that come with it, plus, you can get the whole 8 ring set of inserts for $79.95 if you need real variety.

I'm nearly finished with a router table I'm building for my buddy, (a highly modified NYW model, and it will have a Hitachi M12-V, and the Woodpecker "Plunge Lift" in it. I have 5 routers, and the M12-V replaced the DW625 in my table and it works great. I personally like large router plates because it is easy to pull the whole thing out on occassion for different reasons. I just never have liked a router mounted solid to the table top, but that's just me.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I've built a handful of router table tops over the years, and always found them less than ideal, for one reason or another. Last summer I bought a pair of phenolic tops from Jointech during their big sale, and I wish I'd done it a long time ago. Perfectly flat...hole for the insert or lift already machined. It's money well spent (and time saved), in my opinion.

KC

[JayStPeter]

I am following this thread with interest, as I am in the same boat and need to build a table. Pat Warner got my attention with that thing about not needing a mounting plate, a $200 - $300 expense.

Jay---What about making a tall fence similar to a tennon jig on a table saw, then using vertical panel raising bits? That would let one keep the hole small. Or how about interchangable tops, one with a larger bit opening if one was needed?

Dan

Dan,

My 2nd table started with a 1.5" hole (I believe the PC guide bushing standard size). It worked great for most stuff. Once I got some rail/stile bits, I had to expand it to just over 2" I think. At that point, some small parts got difficult to deal with as they wanted to dive into the hole. I decided to build another table rather than open it up larger when I wanted to do some panel raising.
I have never personally used a vertical panel raising bit. Seems doable, but possibly limiting.
I did see an article in a magazine where someone had made their own reducing rings. I think they used circles they had cut out of acrylic sunk into the table.
My first couple tables were extremely simple. The first, I bolted my router to a piece of 1/2" MDF and put it into my workmate. Made some simple fences that I clamped to it. The second was a benchtop version with DC. I also routed some slots for toilet bolts in that one to adjust the fence. I think I built 3 or 4 fences for it over time. It really gave me a good feel for what I wanted out of a router table. Both were essentially free since they were made from scrap. The first took about 20 minutes to make. The second maybe 2 hrs. Each fence iteration took me a little longer, but mostly less than an hour each.
Don't cheap out on inserts if you choose to use them. That is the reason I have built 4 tables instead of 3.


Jay

[Tom Hurlebaus]

Thanks to everyone for your advice, links and personnel experiences. Tim, thanks for directing me to your post and pictures from last year. The links to Woodpecker, Jointech, and RT-1000 (pretty fancy tables Tom – surprised that they are so reasonably priced) have really got me thinking. On one hand I’d like to have a factory table and be able to start “growing in my woodworking skills” right away (thanks Larry in Michigan for that phasing) and on the other hand building my own table, as many of you have, will give me an opportunity to post a couple of pictures . As Fred stated in his post “One of the more enjoyable projects that I have done in/for my shop has been building my own router table”.

My mind set now is to look for the best deal on a 3+HP router (probably the Hitachi) and start the planning phase for a shop built table (Top/fence selection, plate, lift, etc.). As usual, this planning phase also has to take into account when I would find time to build the table (my honey-do list seems to grow longer everyday). This last point may still bend me towards buying a factory table (that RT-1000SE looks pretty good).

Again, I really appreciate all the insight provided by the members of this forum and the willingness to share your knowledge ….

Tom

[Jerry Olexa]

Bill Hylton has an Excellent book "Router Magic" (IMHO) that details several shop built router tables. Great book!!

[Tom Pritchard]

This last point may still bend me towards buying a factory table (that RT-1000SE looks pretty good).

Again, I really appreciate all the insight provided by the members of this forum and the willingness to share your knowledge ….

Tom

Tom, if you have questions or need any info on the RT-1000SE, just let me know, and make sure you keep us informed of your final decision!

[Bob Yarbrough]

Bought the PC 890 dual base and a Rockler top & metal leg kit. I have had no problems with the setup. The PC has a wrench for table top height adjustments. I spent under $450 for the complete package. Also have a 69 vintage Craftsman router for quick/little jobs.

Money no object, I would buy the Rocklers - Jessman top. (&&&&&)

[Dev Emch]

Hi Tom...
I too have never really owned a true router table. But that is because I hate routers. Yes, I own three of them. They do have their uses but over the last few years, you have seen a plethea (sp?) of new products invade the woodworking shows. Every argument starts out with the same jingle... " Have you ever had these horse apples happen to you?..... well, today is your lucky day mr. whipper snapper... for $199 dollars and 99 cents I will sell you the new and improved, patented helical whachamagigger. Now you can do horse apples like the pros with less effort and no skill."

Well as you guys suspect, most of this gizz are new attachments or improvements to the router table. Now I like my Leigh D-4 jig and I will use my Porter Cable 690 vibrator to knock of 10 minute quickies with the rest of you but that is where I must draw the line.

The industrial wood shaper has been/and is the most important woodworking machine i own. I have used it to do the impossible including using it as a jointer and a moulder. But all of these attachments and gizzmos are designed to make a router perform like a shaper. Each year, more and more products reach the market trying to capitalize on this phenom.

Router bits have gotten larger and larger. Today's panel raising router bits are 3 inches in diameter! They must be run at 10,000 RPM for safety reasons. One reason is that the shaft is 1/2 inch in diameter. Look at the shear area on that shaft! The corresponding 3/4 in, 1 in or 1.25 inch spindle is double to several times the area. Not only is the shear area very small but steel does not leave the rolling mill in an homogenous state. When this bit is made, a section of 3 inch round stock is chucked up and worked on by a metal lathe to produce the bit. The strongest grain in the steel is in the outer section of the billet and the weakest section is right in the middle. Right in the area that will hold your bit together! In a corresponding shaper cutter, the weakest area is bored out as debris! So right there, you have an argument for using real shapers.

Then you have the cut depth, feed rate and spindle speed. The tip speed, hook angle and clearance angle on a router bit are designed to work more like finicky dental drills instead of industrial cutting bits. You have to take several light cuts to accomplish the same task. Even though a shaper cutter is much more aggressive in its hook angle and clearance angle, it is designed to produce a glass smooth surface. But at the same time, you can feed a rough cant into a shaper and just pulverize anything that is not the shape your trying to finish with. And when your using say 1.25 inch spindles with 5 to 10 HP motors with 6 inch diameter steel heads, I do mean PULVERIZE!

Router tables use routers. These are powered by universal motors which derive the horse power output via RPM. So for a router table, a typical router would be a porter cable 7518 which has variable speeds from about 10,000 to 20,000 RPM give or take. Anyone who has used a router knows that characteristic sound of when the router plunges in and begins to take a big bite. That is a loss of RPM. So now you have to deal with fluctuations in RPM depending on load. An industrial shaper is powered by an induction motor which is not nearly as susceptable to this. In fact, at 5 HP and above, the typical shaper job will have an almost impercievable reduction in RPM. You also get a type of harmonic balancing affect from the mass of the cutter your spinning. This helps reduce some of the harmonic blemishes you sometimes find on the finished job.

Puting a sliding table on a router table is an interesting feature. Now why would you wish to have a sliding table on a router table? Simple. End grain cuts. I came up with what I call "THE SHAPING TRIAD". There are three types of wood shaping operations dominated by three types of wood shapers. The first type of cut is called a molding cut and represents a cut along or with the grain. This is the type of cut that a moulder like a wynig would do. It is the easist type of cut and most often, the tooling lacks any shear angle whatsoever. You will find optimum hook and relief angles for this type of cut. Most of the cuts done on a router table or shaper using a fence will be this type of cut. The second type of cut is called a coping cut or end grain cut. This type of cut is done by a machine called a tenoner and the tooling frequently uses high shear angles and the hook and relief angle are designed for this type of cut. The third type of cut can be either molding or coping or a combination. This is the shaper or router tables area of expertise. A shaper can be configured to operate as either a moulder or a tenoner based entirely on setup. End cuts have traditionally been done on router tables and shapers by using the mitre gage in a mitre slot or some variant thereof. The addition of a sliding table is an attempt to mimick the behavior of a dedicated tenoner.

But there is one more thing to think about. In a standard cope and stick application where you have two rails and two stiles, there is an issue with the joint. In order for the rail to fit the stile, you have to cut a reverse of the profile using the coping cutter of your set. This leaves a feeble stub tenon to fill the gab on the moulding cut which holds the groove. Often this is the result of using limited shaper and router tooling to achive this cut. When this is done using a tenoner type approach, one first cuts a basic tenon long enough to sink into the stile's mortise. Then, the tenoner's coping cutter "under cuts" the actual reverse profile of the stile while this cutter is flying over the surface of the previously cut tenon. One coping cutter can cut any size of tenon. Often, with router type tooling, your limited to just the stub tenon which is not strong enough for many applications. The strength of the glue joint depends upon the surface area of the long grain of the tenon. The actual under cut face is end grain so its of little use.

In terms of the afore mentioned argument, your stuck with the stub tenon when using a router table. On the other hand, I can use a large coping disk with a reverse profile on an industrial shaper to under cut any face as needed resulting in any size tenon that I may need. I can also use, for example, a freeborn profile set to cut the stub tenon as before. The point being that I have choice in my approach.

The one area where router tables actually have one up on the shaper is when using very tiny bits and esp. bits that have a vertical orientation. (i.e. using a spriral cut router bit) Here I can do plunge cutting and cut items like blind dados which are much harder to do on a shaper. Of course I can use a router bit spindle adaptor on a shaper but that assumes the shaper can reach speeds of 15,000 to 20,000 RPM. You can run these bits much lower but the quality of the cut and the pleasantness of the cut can be diminished resulting in blow out or burns, etc.

Lastly, most router tables run bits at about 15,000 RPM on average. The router bit has two knives and very little bite. Nonetheless, the typical woodworker is not able to feed the item through fast enough to maintain the chip load and cut for this configuration. The result is that the router bits become prematurely dull. This may be a bit difficult to understand at first because of the perception of RPM drop and the tiny amount of stock being removed during a pass. But its true. Even though your taking only a fraction of what a shaper cutter can pulverize, you still need to maintain a brisk feedrate or you run the risk of dulling knives and leaving burn marks on woods such as cheery and maple.

You will find quite a few shapers out there. An ideal shaper for a hobbyist or beginner would be something along the lines of the Delta/Rockwell HD or Powermatic 26 or 27. Many of your trick fences such as those now for sale by Jessem via woodcraft or rockler can be adapted to fit these shapers as well. The Incra fence system can also be used. In fact, these two shapers do have router bit adapters available and are used often. The HD will have two speeds. For the most part, you need to run at 7000 to 8000 RPM. If your off by a bit either low or high, it does not really matter. Most of your freeborn PC type heads are designed to run at 8000 RPM. The same is true for most 1/2 in to 3/4 inch bore heads which run at 8000 to 10000 RPM. I would not use a 6000 RPM or lower head on an HD. These are often honkin sized steel moulder type heads which will cause you to wet your pants if you try to spin these on an HD. Just stick with the smaller heads like those green woodcraft heads or freeborn heads.

As for buying machines. I have seen many MANY delta/rockwell HD shapers go at auctions and some used dealerships in the $650 dollar range. These are often 5 HP machines and will work quite nicely in the typical home shop. Another source for finding these used is ebay. If you price new, then look at comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges. If you buy a new or used Delta HD, then your going to have to look at a router table which has the following: PC 7518 router, heavy duty bull dog or jessem type router lift, jessem type router fence, complete router table cabinet. At last count, woodcraft was getting over $1000 dollars for a complete jessem router table minus the router. This blew me away! For this money, I can get easily get a real industrial shaper esp. if I go used. The down side to this is that many shapers will have 3 phase motors and that will require you to go to three phase. I would say that over 60 percent of those I know who have old iron shapers have built their own phase converter including myself. Its not a big deal. Just another shop project. Folks, the loss of manufacturing in this country has dumped a ton of good stuff onto the market. Now is the time to take advantage of this surplus by putting heavy iron into your workshop!

Also, for those who have gone to the woodworking shows, you will know that outfits like "The Woodworker's Choice" have significantly increased the number of shaper cutters available through lines like Old Hickery. Price wise, they are not much different than the router bit cousins. Just a hole instead of a stick and, of course, different hook and relief angles.

Pass the router table and go to the shaper. Long ago, a car salesman kept saying to me, "well, its just like a honda this and well its just like a honda that". I kept thinking "Why is this guy always comparing his wares to a honda? Does he not have a feature set that can stand on its own? If its just like a honda, why not just buy the honda in the first place? That would be truly like a honda would it not?" Same thing applies to the shaper. All router tables no matter how well they are made or how much bling bling the dealerships can apply to them are, well, nothing more than router tables who are shaper wanna-bes. And after you use your first true wood pulverizing shaper cutter, you will never look at your router table again... In fact, you will grab your digtial camera for the ebay photos of your router table!

[Michael Gibbons]

I went to a woodworking show and purchased a CMT top and fence from Mark Sommerfeld. He told me to save money to just build the cabinet which I look back on and realize that I should have spent the money because it would have been easier. The top is phenolic and the fence is beefy. Have a P/C 7518 underneath.

[Greg Mann]

A couple posts up Dev makes an argument for forsaking the router table and going right to the shaper. I have not bothered to quote any of it because of its length. All I can say is "Me thinks he doth protest too much."

Dev, while I would never try to talk anyone out of buying a shaper, and I agree with most of what you say (more on that later) your solution is gross overkill for many of us. I would suggest anyone who aspires to a shaper but has no real router table experience should start with the router table. Even a very expensive RT rig, about a grand, will allow someone to get going without the daunting task of collecting the myriad of shaper tools necessary to do equivalent types of work. Notice I said 'equivalent types', not equal work. For any work that would stress a router table, a shaper will cruise through, but just one set of shaper tools to do one style of kitchen cabinets represents a serious investment as well. Point is, a router table is a great place to learn and can be very complimentary to a shaper later on.

I cannot let your remark about the relative quality of steel at the center of a core being poorer than the outer areas go unchalleged. If anything, the flaws from the rolling process are in the outermost 5% of a bar with the most homogeneous characteristics in the middle. Many, many aircraft components such as gears will carry a specification that they be made from an oversized bar that guarantees removal of enough of the outer skin to assure these flaws, if they exist, will be removed. You are very correct, however, that a larger diameter is dramatically more rigid. The rigidity of steel increases exponentialy relative to cross section and even a 3/4 inch shaper shaft is 2.25 times more rigid than a 1/2 shaft of equal metallurgy, but, I cannot recall any class action suits against the makers of 3" diameter panel raisers. Having said this, I once sold a small shaper that I had inherited from my father. I had carted it around everytime I moved for a decade and was sure I would never find a need for it. I would love to have it back. Goes to show I don't know everything.

Greg

[Dev Emch]

Greg...

I must disagree with you on the steel. For the most part, rolled steel is more punky in the center than towards its outer layers. True, there is some rolling film in the outer edges but that is usually cut off. I make parts and cutters myself so this is how I know of this. In the past, I would start out with either fully anealed 4140 or pretreat 4140 steel. Anealled gave me a rockwell hardness of about Rc-18 and pretreat gave me a hardness of about Rc-30. At Rc-30, cutting threads with HSS lathe tools becomes hard but the rest is easy when using insert tooling such as CCMT carbide inserts. I did get better results using anealled steel. First you machine out the rough shape and then heat treat to Rc-40. The carbon content in 4140 chrome molly would only allow you to go to about Rc-40 which is much more than standard steels such as A-36 hot rolled structural steel or 1018 type steels which are typical of your CRS or cold rolled mild steels. These can be hardened but will need to be hardened using case hardening methods. You dont have the carbon content to use normal methods.

Once the heat treat of parts made from anealed 4140 is done, then you use a cylindrical grinder or surface grinder to finish the parts. Router bits done this way will not have the issues I cited earlier but no one does it this way.

Recently, I have had a chance to examine some older engineering drawings from the older companies of note. I found that a typical call out for machined parts was none other than CRS. Even for shaper spindles! So using chrome molly was over kill.

But I did come across a reference to 1144 LaSalle Stress Proof steel. Northfield uses this material to make the spindles and other round parts for their woodworking machines. In looking into this steel, here is what I found. The steel company LaSalle actually holds a patent on stress proof steel which I think has expired some time ago. It is basicly a form of cold rolled mild steel but has been subjected to a different rolling process. IT is this process that gives stress proof its claim to fame properties. My sources are not able to get steel from LaSalle; however, ANSI has since written up a standard for it and listed it along with the 1144 name. So now, we can get this type of steel made from a number of certified rolling mills for use in making parts. For you metalurgy guys, compare the numbers of say 1018 versus 1144 for composition variations. But also remember that stress proof is also as much about the rolling process as the ingredients. The main thing being that this steel has a consistent strength throughout its cross section.

In doing internet research into 1144, I did find some references by Jessada tool about using billets of 3 inch stress proof to manufacture router bits. In the decriptions listed, the exact arguments of reduced strength in inner cross sectional areas were cited and that stress proof was one way to insure that the 1/2 inch shaft supporting the router bit head was of adequate strength.

[Greg Mann]

CMT uses either StressProof or a vacuum re-melt, which would be even better. I cannot recall which so I will not state either with true conviction. In your original post you indicated it was the rolling process that was the culprit. In your second post you reiterated that and referred to the resulting center as "punky". Then you claim that the solution to the problem is another rolling process. You gave a brief history of you own experience in pursuing higher quality base materials. Is it unreasonable to assume that others have not done the same thing to improve the performance of their products? I am very familiar with StressProof. It is a very good product and I would not attempt to claim that all router bits are made from it or some other grade with admirable metallurgy but I am inclined to think a higher percentage than you seem willing to accept, especially amongst the premium brands. As you also know it is more than the carbon content that gives 4140 its characteristics, just as the Rockwell hardness achieved is not necessarily a direct reflection on strength. If this were the case 4140 would be no stronger than run of the mill 1040 and we both know that isn't the case. My main point, though, is different. You seem to be implying that because of the possibility that someone may use large router bits in their RTs they are putting themselves at considerable risk and that a shaper, and a bigger version at that, would be much safer. I like shapers but there is plenty of room for high quality and safe work to be done on RTs. Shapers present knew challenges in their own right.


Greg

[Dev Emch]

Gregg, Gregg, Gregg....

First of all, looking in my CMT catalog, I see that they are using stress proof steel from no less than a swiss steel mill.

What I said was correct. If you fully anneal, then you weaken the metal to its softest state. Cutting fully annealed 4140 is like cutting butter with a hot knife. If I heat treat this item, then I run the risk of making it to brittle. This happens because the carbon in the steel turns into interlaced granules of carbide. Then, to make it more durable, I need to temper this item. This is done by heating it up again and then cooling it with a more precise temperature ramp down then just quenching which happened during the initial heat treat. The anneal process is where I heat the item up and allow all the carbide to return to carbon very slowly and gradually. Tempering is basicly inbetween these extremes.

When items are rather "FAT", then the tempering and heat treating process does not fully uniformally do the same thing all the way through. This is why I dont particularly like using 3 inch pretreat 4140 for router bits. If it were only 1 inch or maybe 2 inch, I would be more comfortable. But I need that smaller, 1/2 inch diameter center section to build my bit and that means hogging away all the metal from 3 inch OD to 1/2 OD finish to make this shank section. Your going to have variations in hardness, temper and ultimately strength in going from 3 in to 1/2 inch OD.

In stress proof steel, this variation has been virtually eliminated by using a "special" or "patent" rolling process where its more complex than just rolling out CRS in either a hot roll or cold roll process. You have your rolling process but then you also have controlled heating and cooling at the same time. The reciepe is what makes stress proof stress proof.

Making billets from a re-melt is not a good idea. First of all, most of your tool steels with the exception of higher end steels such as D-7 are crucible steels. They are melted using induction furnaces with a vacuum. Allowing oxygen to cantaminate steel is a bad thing because you can burn off your carbon content and have issues with knowing how much carbon is in the steel. This is why cupolas and gas furnaces are not used here. Tool steels such as D-7 and better are almost carbide type hybrids and are made using powder metalurgy. But, lets assume I cast a 3 inch billet from a batch of say A-2 tool steel which is familiar to woodworkers. Its what Lie Neielsen uses to make plane blades. I now have a random grain structure with no orientation. Break a chunk of cast iron and look at the cleavage. Feel the cleavage. By rolling the stock into a billet, I actually begin to reorient the grain structure in the steel. Even more so with hot rolled steel although the heating and gradual cooling anneals any work hardening that occurs. In Cold Roll, I actually pick up some more strength due to this work hardening. In Stress Proof, all sorts of stuff is happening because of the heating, the cooling and the rolling. The ultimate form of this process is forging. If I saw off a billet of steel and drop forge it into a hammer head for example, then I need to machine it a bit, clean it up and polish it. The outcome is the strongest possible outcome for an item made of this alloy. It is much stronger than if I had hogged the hammer head from a block of the same steel. The forging has reorientated the grains to optimize the part's strength.

No I am not implying any form of personal risk. Companies that sell router bits have to deal with this liability on their own terms. All I said was that I dont necessarily agree with how large router bits are made. True, the use of stress proof has made this possible. I also made the comment that I dont agree with spending upwards of $1000 dollars for a jessem router table which is trying to mimick a shaper. I also mentioned the fact that shapers have issues in spinning vertical oriented bits. I know this because I have spent countless hours testing various solutions to this problem. I have even designed router bit spindles using ER collets to allow shapers to spin router bits. I have enclosed some photos of one such spindle that I made for a general SS-32 woodshaper with a 5 HP motor. I have to admit that it was not pleasant. You have to take several tiny passes or the bit just grabs your work and throws it accross the shop. I actually found this dangerous and not as safe as using the heavy meat cutters for this same task.

[Greg Mann]

Dev,

Please read my PM.

Greg

[Ken Salisbury]

Please, lets stick to the original thread topic.

Technical discussion of metallurgy can be done in a seperate thread in the Off Topic Forum.