Finish questions for first cherry project

[Jason Zahn]

Hello All,

I'm brand new to the site, and let me say first and foremost that the amount of information and interaction here is just incredible, and I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

Well, here's the deal...I'm new to woodworking, and am currently getting started on a side table that I am going to build for my parents for Christmas. The table top will be 4/4 cherry, and the legs and rails are black walnut.

I have a couple of questions regarding finishing both the cherry and the walnut, neither of which I've had the chance to work with yet.

First off, after the stock is planed etc., would it be adequate to go ahead and start ROS sanding with 120, 150, 180 for the top, legs, and rails, or should the cherry and walnut be taken up to 220?

Secondly, as far as finishes go, I'd appreciate some input: I was planning on using BLO on the cherry top, let it dry for 48 hrs or so, then follow that with a coat of pre-mixed shellac (possibly zinsser). How many coats of shellac would 'typically' be used, and, would it be appropriate to then utilize a final top coat of water based satin poly over the shellac. (Not sure if the poly-acrylic product can be used over shellac??). What I'm looking for is a natural finish for the cherry that will look nice with the black walnut.

Concerning the black walnut, what type of finish would you all use with that? I don't really want to darken the walnut and increase the contrast between it and the cherry, although the contrast won't be such an issue I suppose as the cherry takes on its natural darkening with age.

Any thought, experiences, and advise would be MUCH appreciated. Thanks!

[sheldon pettit]

Hello Jason, i would keep it simple as possible and just use tung oil 100% pure and forget the others. This will provide a very nice look, and easy repair and renewal as time goes by. Of course that is one finishers opinion, I'm sure others will chime in over time today

[Jason Zahn]

Hello Jason, i would keep it simple as possible and just use tung oil 100% pure and forget the others. This will provide a very nice look, and easy repair and renewal as time goes by. Of course that is one finishers opinion, I'm sure others will chime in over time today

Hey, thanks for the input....Tung Oil on the Walnut, as well??

[sheldon pettit]

YEP, both, of course you can dye the walnut and orange yellow first since that is what it will eventually become over time, but that's your decision ok?

[Prashun Patel]

Sheldon is the pro, so I defer to his suggestion; tung oil is indeed the simplest solution.

However, if the table is going to get moderate use, then IMHO, the easiest way to a durable finish is a wipe-on varnish. For natural color finishes, I like to sand all the way up to 400, but some say it's not necessary. I just get a better feeling finish quicker when I do that.

A great wipe on varnish is Waterlox Original Sealer Finish (Original Formula). It's a tad pricey. You basically pour a small bit in a lintfree rag, then wipe it on. It should only take a few coats until you reach an even semigloss sheen.

It's durable, and IMHO its amber color brings out the best in cherry and walnut.

Shellac is a great product, but if this is yr first time, then I'd say don't give yourself any of the frustrations that come with shellac yet.

BLO is also used by many as a colorant under film finishes. However, I have found that it can affect the drying time and hardness of subsequent top coats. That's just my own anecdotal experience - not conventional wisdom. Under most oil-based film finishes or shellac, it's just not noticeable, IMHO. I say skip that step.

Last, cherry and walnut both have amazing color under any finish. To color them is unnecessary in most cases.

[sheldon pettit]

Prashun may not have my expertise, but i value his input always

I was taking into consideration that it was for your parents and they probably would not be intentionally abusing it and that they could fix any minor damages themselves with a little sanding and re-application of the tung, which you could supply them with. That said, if you think it will or may recieve harder use and need the extra protection Prashun is reccomending, by all means do so. I also say stay away from linseed oil for a finish.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'll duck the varnish/oil/finish issue.

I vote early and often for Sheldon's point about an orange-ish dye on the walnut, or at least some garnet or orange shellac as the first finish coat. Remarkable what that does for the walnut.

Understand, also, that walnut is the weird duck in the pond - it lightens over the years, as opposed to the cherry that darkens.

[Jason Zahn]

Thank you all for the input and suggestions.

The table, though I'm sure it will be cared for gently by my parents, will be around kids, so a little extra protection probably wouldn't hurt.

I'll go with the consensus to stay away from BLO. If I choose to go with the Waterlox wiping varnish, I wouldn't need a final top coat of an additional product after several coats of that, correct, Prashun?
Sounds like that would be a relatively simple route for a beginner like me?

Sheldon/Kent- can you guys reccomend any specific dyes and/or shellac in the case that I end up going that route on this, or another piece?

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox is a topcoat - even though it's called a "Sealer Finish". You can use it and nothing else on top.

Waterlox is quite a bit more 'amber' than other varnishes, so you might (as I do) find Waterlox provides just the right amount of color to both walnut and new cherry.

If you are set on dyeing the walnut (I would not dye the cherry) then you can use an 'amber' aniline dye. Know, though, that typically people dye walnut when they are putting a waterbased topcoat on it. Waterbased topcoats tend to have less yellow in them vis-a-vis oilbased finishes or shellac, which means they can lack 'warmth'. Oil topcoats impart some amber on their own; and Waterlox is quite a bit darker than most other varnishes.

Aniline dyes - like shellac - are wonderful tools in the arsenal. If you are going to be doing many more projects, I highly suggest you get both and start playing - on scraps and test pieces. For this first project, though, I suggest you keep it simple. It will look WONDERFUL without any dye or shellac, and will also provide a great baseline for the future.

If anything, I would take your piece and sand it to 400, and then let it bask in the sun for a week. That will kickstart the cherry into darkening. Then finish it.

[sheldon pettit]

All good suggestions, I to prefer to let nature take it's coarse with both woods and turn color naturally, if fact if you can sunburn the cherry longer than a week even better, especially in colder weather where the sun is not as potent as in the summer months.

[Jason Zahn]

Thanks again guys...one final question, would it be routine for you to sand cherry and walnut all the way to 400, or is that due to the 'natural' finish I'll be applying? Most posts I read prior talked mainly about sanding only to 220 max. Thanks!

[Prashun Patel]

Sanding past 220 (and even 150 or 180 on some woods) begins to burnish the wood. This reduces its ability to absorb anything. This is bad if you are trying to color the wood, since dyes and stains require adequate penetration. Topcoats, however - even oil (at least that's my contrarian view) - do not require deep penetration to do their protection job. In this case, it has been my experience that sanding to 320 or 400 actually helps the first couple topcoats go on more evenly than if only sanded coarser. There are anecdotes of people who sand up to 1000 before putting on a topcoat. You have to pick what feels right to you.

For strict oil or oil/varnish (i.e., in-the-wood) finishes, sanding to finer grits really helps in getting a silky soft feel in the end product. However, I will say that I have noticed on a piece of quilted maple I'm working on now that when sanded to 400 and then oiled, the figure did not seem to accentuate as well as I thought it should. When I sanded back to 150, and started applying the oil, I got better results.

For film-forming wipe-on or straight varnishes or even shellac, sanding to 400 helps those first few coats go on smoother and even. In the end, it allows me to put on less finish and still achieve an even sheen - which looks best (to me).

In the end, perhaps on this project you shld go with conventional wisdom and sand to 220. Again, you won't go wrong, and it'll provide a baseline should you decide in the future to deviate up or down in grit prep.

If it were me, and this were my first, here's the sched I'd follow (it's more or less similar to what was recommended in a recent article in FWW):

sand all parts before assembly: 100, 150, 220
Wipe or brush on a good coat of Waterlox or equivalent (after an hour or two, wipe off any pooling). Let dry overnight.
Sand all parts gently again with 220 until smooth. Wipe off debris
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts gently again with 400 until smooth. Wipe of debris.
Wipe on two more thin coats of Waterlox (let dry over night in between)
Sand all parts with 600 until smooth. Wipe off debris.
Wipe on one more thin coat of Waterlox.

Done this way, you can get a professional looking/feeling finish with minimal fuss.

To each his own.

[Jason Zahn]

Prashun, thanks so much for the info and advice. I was thinking something along the lines of your proposed finishing schedule, but that clarifies a lot for me and gives me something more concrete to go by. I'm sure I'll have more newbie questions as I get started...

jason

[sheldon pettit]

Every job i have done that were my clients i have sanded to a minimum of 320, no matter what finish i'm using. I have been writing a book and i address the sanding verses finish among other things that are right yet also wrong, i call the chapter "myth" information, with subtitles of myth-conceptions/myth understandings/etc., this is one of those i label myth-understandings

Most of the wood finishing industry does sand to anywhere from 150/180/220 at most. but there is a good reason for such and it's not wrong, but it only applies to facets concerning time/labor/choice of finishing materials/and how all of those are used and applied. If anyone wants to sand further and use the correct materials to achieve the desired end results, then there is no real limit past those abrasives available that one can choose to use.

For the industrial wood finishing companies that want or need to achieve a color using pigment stains, sanding past 150 grit can lighten the color to an unacceptable degree, that applies to home owners and hobbyist also. In those cases, they or you are not wrong at stopping there or even coarser if necessary if that's all you have to stain with or what you want to use ok?

On the other-hand, if those companies or you used dyes to obtain the bulk of the ground color and then applied the pigment stain over it to be in or to warm up that ground colored dye, you could easily go as fine as 220-320 or in Prashun's case 400. The industrial companies also try to use higher solids coatings normally, for this reason, they prefer more tooth to increase penetration and adhesion of those coatings no matter what they are. But it's very simple to over thin/reduce any coating, even polyester to the point where it is able to soak in a polished surface like a few pen makers who sand to 12,000 - yes 12,000 grit and apply cyanoacrylate glues as there finish which will readily penetrate any wood and have excellent adhesion and polish up very high,.

Does that mean everyone should do this? of course not, but if all three things are in proper relation to each other, there is really no limit as to how fine you can abrade wood to and still get a good finish with all the necessary attributes. Every manufacturer has his reasons for finishing the way they do, it's not wrong, but like most things it is "faceted information" that pertain to a certain set of desired circumstances and needs they have to do so ok? The "myth" is that because that's become the acceptable norm, or prep gospel, most everyone else follows suite and ends up with a diminished result compared to someone who experiments outside the box like myself or even Prashun. Don't get me wrong i test all my methods or did in the past to make sure just as the big guys do, there were no risk of finish failure past doing it the acceptable or recommended ways, or unneeded liabilities with doing such, i'm no fool, and i hate re-doing any work because of faulty methods or materials or preparation faults. I won't go any further but someday you can see the whole picture when my book is ready to publish ok?


Meanwhile, Prashun's methods will be just fine if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

[Prashun Patel]

...if you also thin the first coat down say 1 part finish to 9 parts reducer and apply, brush out and let soak in and then remove any excess that's still on the surface after a few minutes or so, when that has dried use it full strength from there on out ok?

(Humbly) Waterlox OSF is (unlike their other formulations) already thinned to be a wipe-on varnish. In my experience it requires no thinning even on raw wood.

Also, I highly recommend finishing before assembly - EXCEPT for those parts that require post-assembly sanding to bring them flush. Pre-finishing like this makes the process easier (no corners to get into) and also seals the wood so that glue squeeze out during assembly is easily removed.