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Thread: CA Finishes

  1. #1
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    CA Finishes

    In another thread, Russell Neyman suggested that we start a discussion on CA finishes, so here it is. Sorry if it is a little long.

    I don't like finishing, especially when it takes more than a day, so I started using CA, even on bowls and platters. Although the CA application is only done in small sections (bands), it goes pretty quickly. I can do one coat on a gouge handle in less than a minute and typically end up with six coats. Although the finish can be anything from satin to glossy, it does not look thick or plastic. There were lots of mistakes and learning, but the following has worked well for me. It is based on a couple of techniques that are a little different from other CA finishes.


    1. This is for finishing on the lathe because it requires the high speed and friction to achieve the smooth surface.
    2. Sand the wood, not the finish. Unlike typical CA finishes where a thick coat is applied and then sanded flat, this finish depends on a very smooth wood surface and eliminates any sanding of the finish.
    3. Use boiled linseed oil (BLO) both as a base/sealer coat and as a lubricant (?) when applying the CA. Apparently, BLO is chemically compatible with CA and does not interfere with it curing, other than slowing down the process. I think it also acts as a lubricant, much like the walnut oil used in a french polish.
    4. Use paper towels for all applications. Test the CA on the towel, and if it starts smoking (curing) immediately, find a paper towel that doesn't do this.
    5. I use thin CA. I have tried medium and thick to build coats faster, but they seem to dry too quickly and form "smears" rather than a smooth glossy surface.


    First, sand the wood through 1200 grit with sandpaper and then finish with 2000 and 4000 grit Abralon. It should have a nice uniform sheen at this point. After sanding, wipe the surface liberally with BLO, wipe off the excess and burnish it dry with a folded paper towel at pretty high speed (1500 RPM for spindles, less for bowls and platters). The surface should dry and not be tacky - burnish more if it is. Incidentally, this really brings out the chatoyance, more than any other finish I have tried.

    PUT A GLOVE ON THE HAND APPLYING THE CA!!!! The CA is now applied using a paper towel folded to about 3/4" wide strip about 4" long. Do this by putting a drop of BLO on the tip of the towel and then the CA, about a 1:1 ratio (hard to tell since the CA soaks into the towel). With the lathe running, apply the CA/BLO mixture in a small band 1" - 2" wide. Rub back and forth quickly as it cures. Watch the wood surface in the reflection from the work light and you will see the lines from the liquid disappear and the surface should become very glossy. Some say not to do this as it melts the CA. I think the smooth surface is a result of the burnishing. The towel will get hot and stiff from the CA and probably stick to the glove (I use finger cots on top of the glove finger and replace them, since they are much cheaper than a glove). Cut off the end of the paper towel for a fresh section. Do not reuse the stiff towel for the subsequent coat. I do 2 coats and then hit it with accelerator. This will cause the surface to haze a little, but it will return to glossy with the next coat. As I get to the 4th - 6th coats, I cut back on the BLO so there is just a small amount compared to the CA. If the CA starts to cure too quickly and haze, increase the BLO.

    If all has gone correctly, you should have a pretty glossy finish with no further sanding or buffing. If you want a really high gloss you can buff immediately with tripoli and carnuba, although I normally wait 24 hours. I keep the BLO and CA in small squeeze bottles to apply to the folded paper towel. If you get any streaking or hazing while applying the CA, just sand it back to uniformity with 400 grit and start applying the CA again. I have applied the finish by hand (off the lathe) to the bottom of pieces that could not be rechucked, but needed to use more BLO to prevent streaking and hazing, since you don't have the benefit of the high speed on the lathe. You just have to rub a lot to get it to cure.

    If you want to try this, do it on a 1" or 2" spindle - that's the easiest way to start. I have attached a picture of a 10" jatoba platter that took about 30 minutes from start to finish (pun intended) to apply the CA. The picture does not show the surface well, but is is buffed to a very high gloss and the chatoyance is beautiful. I would like to hear about other's experience with CA finishes or any comments on this technique.

    Dave
    Jatoba Platter sm.jpg
    Way south of most everybody...

  2. #2
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    I've never used it on anything larger than a pen. thought about putting it on a pepper mill. I'd be interested in what everyone else thinks though.
    Where did I put that?

  3. #3
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    Dave,

    Thanks for the tutorial. It was very informative. While I've used CA to finish pens and bottle stoppers, I learned a lot reading your post. I'll have to try some of your suggestions to improve my technique.

    On a related topic, one of the CA makers has recently released a CA that is designed for finishing. Supposedly it has been specially formulated to be better than their regular CA glue for use as a finish. Anyone tried it?
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  4. #4
    I use CA on a high percentage of my pieces. I have found that the BLO slowed the cure to much. I used it at first, but as pieces aged I found excessive shrinkage in the finish. I use only thin CA for my process on the larger pieces, I build multiple coats. I find it less much problematic to build successive thin coats. I have done vases as large as 10"+. Since I gave up the BLO all my shrinkage issues went away.

    David, I have used the finishing CA and do not care for it much. I guess it is what you get use to. I don't think it is worth any extra money.

    Alan

  5. #5
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    I use CA on pens or bottle stoppers until I found Woodturners finish. Hated the fumes from CA. IMHO if the bowl or platter is to be used as a utility piece CA won't hold up. It might be ok for a display. I don't think it is worth the fumes and cost to use it but that is just me.
    Bernie

    Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.

    To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone.



  6. #6
    I bought some of that StickFast finishing CA at a symposium earlier this year. It worked fine up until recently. Now it's taking way longer than it should to cure. In an effort to speed it up I used FastCap's SP10 accelerator, and it's caused the CA finish to crack really badly. It even deteriorates worse over time. I've read about some other folks who've had the same trouble using the Stickfast accelorator....

    I think I'll go back to using the regular adhesive type CA glue.
    CarveWright Model C
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    Half-a-Brain

  7. #7
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    Guys,
    Thanks for the questions and comments. The goal was to stimulate discussion, and I guess that has worked.

    David, I have not used the CA formulated for finishing, so I can't comment. I did talk to the people from Starbond at SWAT about their CA Finish, and got the impression that it was just a little thicker and slower curing. I might try it at some point, although I have not had any problems with the normal adhesive.

    Alan, I am surprised that the BLO/CA finish cracked on your pieces. Since the BLO slows the cure time, I figured it would make the CA more flexible. How long did it take for the BLO/CA finish to crack? I have several pieces that are 2 years old and have no cracks. Could you please provide more details?

    Bernie, regarding the fumes, I agree that they are pretty obnoxious and probably not healthy. When I finish, I have a fan blowing the fumes away from me.

    Most turners, excluding pen makers, say they sand to 320 or 400 grit. My experience with sanding the bare wood to 4000 has produced a much nicer finish, especially with thinner coats. It would be interesting to hear comments about that.
    Way south of most everybody...

  8. #8
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    I'm with Bernie on the WTF for bigger pieces. I've been very happy with the results and no fumes.

  9. #9
    Dave,

    No it did not crack but the finish shrinks into the grain of the wood. Of course the more open grain the wood the more noticeable the shrinkage. On my mixed media pieces there is more shrinkage noted between the differing materials. This prevents that level finish that I desire. I have pieces that are about 4 years old with no shrinkage or very minimal shrinkage. All finishes shrink as the come to a full cure it is just a matter of how much. On every piece that I noted shrinkage with BLO CA I decided to sand or remove the finish. Once the surface was broken I could smell fresh CA fumes this was about 6 months after the application. This leads me to believe that the CA is impeding proper cure of the CA. Now if it was on maple or a very closed grain material I suspect it would be much less noticeable.

    Most of the stuff that I do has a horribly open grain like live oak, acorn caps, spalted and rotted wood etc. so it may be that the material I use it on are much more problematic.

    Alan

  10. #10
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    Alan,
    Thanks for the details. Most of my turnings are more closed grain woods (cocobolo, sycamore, walnut, maple). I have noticed that the CA/BLO finish does not even come close to filling the pores in an open grain wood like jatoba, but then I kinda like to see a little grain rather than a thick glassy coating. I just finished an experiment where I used fast drying Gemcoat 160 sanding sealer first to fill the grain and then tried the CA/BLO finish, and they appear to be incompatible, resulting in a gummy residue. I have put the finish over wipe-on polyurethane and did not seem to have any problems. The only issue is that it took many coats to fill the grain and a day for each coat to dry, not compatible with my goal of <1 hour finish. The WTF seems like a reasonable candidate, except that it is water based and raises the grain, but am not done experimenting with it yet. If anyone is interested, I'll update when I have more.
    Dave
    Way south of most everybody...

  11. #11
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    Alan,

    For a quick grain filler, I've used Deft brushing lacquer. Apply a thick coat full strength and let it soak in for a few minutes before wiping off the excess followed by burnishing the finish dry with a paper towel. A couple of coats can be applied within 15 minutes. Then, sand down to bare wood with 220 grit sandpaper. Usually, that leaves the pores adequately filled. If not, wet sand using a little Deft as the lubricant. On bottle stoppers and pens, I've been able to apply CA finish over the pore-filled-with Deft wood without problems.
    Last edited by David Walser; 11-14-2012 at 12:52 AM.
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  12. #12
    I make game calls as a side business and do a heck of a lot of CA finishing. I've tried just about every method and have had the best results with medium Titebond CA (no BLO), Satellite City activator used sparingly between applications, then wet sanding with 1500 and 2000. I then buff on the Beall tripoli and white diamond wheels. A lot of callmakers were contacting me for help with CA on their calls so I put together some videos that walk you through my process. It shows me doing a duck call but the same process can be applied to pens, bottle stoppers, pepper mills and so on. I think it is about 30 minutes worth of talking about and demonstrating the way I do it.
    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZk0XC3mZA
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQKvsXlSigs
    Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYWSKeGse2I

    Another cool way to apply it is by using plastic sandwich bags or those little plastic bags you get in the nuts and bolts aisle at the hardware store. It takes practice but works really well with thin CA.

  13. #13
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    May 2010
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    I saw this thread yesterday and thought I might chime in. I did a LOT of testing for the Stickfast people when they started working on the finishing CA. I even did a short video for them you can see on their website. The finishing formula is lots thinner than the regular formula, and also dries slower. It was formulated so that it gives a longer work time for larger projects. I have finished a couple larger projects with it, but it takes a lot of time. When I turn pens that is the only way I will finish one. The glue does seem to be less stable for tolerating heat, it will start the activation process. That is why it seems to take longer to cure as it ages. I guess it is the nature of the beast. They have changed the formula a couple times but it is working pretty good for me. I turned and finished 6 pens in about 1 1/2 hours the other morning. I am not on the Stickfast payroll so I hope it is OK for me to post this. If not the mods can feel free to delete this post.

  14. #14
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    Here's a link to the video Russell mentions above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZLZy2v0r0

    Russell, thanks for the video. I'm struck by how similar your method appears to be to what Aaron demonstrated in his videos.
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  15. #15
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    Aaron, thank you for sharing your videos. You make the CA finishing process look easy -- much easier than I found it to be at first. Thanks for sharing you knowledge.
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

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