(Another…) request for help selecting sharpening stones

[seth lowden]

I usually don't reply to advise threads, but I wondered why all the other sharpening media were eliminated from consideration. I am using diamond stones, superfine Spyderco, and strop with Crom-ox powder (not crayon), after getting antsy to get to work. Simichrome works great on a strop also.

[David Weaver]

I would prefer the shapton pros, presuming they are affixed to something. With a grinder, they should take less time and provide a better edge. The only way I'd use sellers' method was if I had a demand that the bevel was convex (like if you intend to use the chisels bevel down all the time). The harder the chisel, the longer the sellers process would take.

[David Weaver]

I usually don't reply to advise threads, but I wondered why all the other sharpening media were eliminated from consideration. I am using diamond stones, superfine Spyderco, and strop with Crom-ox powder (not crayon), after getting antsy to get to work. Simichrome works great on a strop also.

Simichrome and autosol on MDF both work really well to create a keen edge. They do leave a film on a chisel, though, that comes off as black stuff at the edges of a cut.

If a person had a washita (one of the old ones) stone, a grinder, and a piece of MDF with autosol, you could make an edge just as good as any stone that you can use quickly. And similarly fast, as long as the steel is matched to the washita stones.

[paul cottingham]

Before my hands blew up, I used a set bought at LV which consisted of an 800, 4000, and 8000. I rarely used the 800 except to reestablsh a bevel. I started with a combination stone for the honing stones, then treated myself to two separate stones. I think the key for me was a good guide. Even an eclipse would be good, and they are very affordable. You can make an angle setting guide out of scrap, like the one that Lie-Nielsen has a plan for on their website. It doubles as a stone holder, as well.
I also have a grinder for terribly damaged edges.

I got great edges with this simple system.

A very good alternative is a belt grinder, with a leather strop belt. You can get killer edges with that system as well.

[David Keller NC]

I'm still feeling kind of stuck I guess. I am really hoping to get a setup that will work for me for the long-term and I won't have to be replacing/substituting things a year or two from now, but I also don't feel comfortable spending 300-400 dollars for the set up. I think this is why I was drawn to Stu's "cheaper" 1 and 6k kit and the shaptons, because they are both supposed to be great stones that are within my budget.

I wouldn't get "paralysis by analysis" over this decision. Just get what you can afford, and concern yourself with learning to use whatever you've purchased. There's a learning curve to any sharpening media/system, and all of them will produce a razor-sharp edge. The only difference is the drawbacks that each system has, and all of them have drawbacks - perfection cannot be achieved.

Just to respond to a few things, I've already got a bench grinder for doing initial bevels, and I've also got a surface plate that I can use with sand paper for really rough work. So I figure I'm pretty much covered up until the 1k mark, hence why I'm looking at stones starting in that range.

If you have a grinder with an appropriate coarse, cool-grinding wheel and a surface plate, then you're all set. For the initial purchase, I would dispense with the coarse grit stones. Just get a 6000k or 8000k polishing stone, or a black, hard arkansas. You can use the surface plate and some medium-fine sandpaper for the initial back-flattening of the blades, or you could use the polishing stone with the "ruler trick" to establish a narrow line of polished steel on the back of the blade. You do not need a coarse stone for the bevel if you've hollow-ground it. I go directly from the grinder to my Norton 8000k water stone, and the narrow, 1mm wide strip of steel adjacent to the edge (the only part that counts) gets just as mirror-polished as if I'd gone through a progression of grits.

I hadn't really considered oil stones much, and I've read some conflicting things. I know not all are created equal since they are a natural product, but are there some to definitely avoid? I've seen places where you can get a soft and hard Arkansas stone for ~$60 and places where the pair will run you 200. I'm not against oil stones, it just seems like they aren't discussed much, so I guess I naively assumed they weren't as popular/user friendly/good/whatever. If that winds up being my solution that would be fine, I just don't know much about oil stones.

I guess at the end of it all I'm looking for a system I can stick with and kind of grow into, not out of, but that also doesn't break the bank. Thanks!

-Adrian

What I've suggested above should fit neatly within your budget, because with the set up you have, the only thing you require is a fine polishing stone (and perhaps a Norton cool-grinding 46 grit wheel for your grinder - this is important!). The difference in prices you see with Arkansas stones has to do with the size and thickness of the stones, as well as the grading. To get a "premium" grading (and therefore a premium price), a stone has to have virtually no imperfections. That's a visual thing - imperfections will not have any effect on sharpening. I would, btw, recommend getting a hard, black arkansas rather than a hard arkansas as your polishing stone. They are, at least in my experience, a fair bit finer grit than the hard arkansas stones. I don't see much difference on the steel of my carving tools between a hard, black arkansas and a hard, translucent arkansas.

Here is the progression of grits in oilstones, btw: india stones (man-made, in various grits that are coarser than natural stones)>washita natural stone>soft arkansas>hard arkansas>hard, black arkansas>translucent hard arkansas.

Finally, here is an idea for storing waterstones in your shop if that's what you decide to go with: buy a small, fully submersible aquarium heater and a small cooler. The heater will prevent your stones from freezing and breaking, and they can stay in water so they're always ready to use. A bonus is that the aquarium heater will keep the water in the cooler about 60-70 deg F, so you won't be dunking your hand in nearly freezing water.

[Mel Fulks]

You have lots of good technical advise . The stones are a worthy and fascinating hobby and collectible. Where expense is concerned ,the old woodworking books often mention a grinder and soft Arkansas stone as complete equipment ,and if you could afford it a black Arkansas stone as ultimate addition. Where they recommended more stones it was for coarser(usually cheaper ) stuff to use when there was no grinder. IF YOU HAVE GOOD STEEL In the tools you don't have to spend a lot, and if you don't have good tools a collection of equipment won't help.

[Stanley Covington]

My recommendations based on many years of professional experience. This set of stones is the cheapest in the long run and will satisfy all your needs.

Basic information: First, forget Shapton: too little bang for the buck. Big bucks, short lifespan. Tool retailers and magazine writers don't like to hear this, but it is true nonetheless. Second, whenever possible, get two of each grit of stone. Remember, your customer/employer is paying for you to efficiently use your sharp tools, but he is not paying you to sharpen them, much less to flatten your friggin waterstones during the work day. That said, depending on the workload, the quality of the wood, and the amount of dust in the air, you may need to sharpen several times during the day, but if you only have one stone, and the face is too hollow to sharpen properly, you are SOL. Imagine screwing around with glass and sandpaper in front of the customer or your boss or fellow crewmembers. Pitiful. Mickey Mouse. But if you have two stones ready to go each morning, you will probably be able to get through the day without problems. If, heaven forbid, you do need to dress your stones though, rubbing two hollow-faced stones of the same grit together is a cheap and handy way to flatten both stones at the same time. This method works just as well in the shop

Expanding on this idea, one which is not just Japanese, BTW, the best carpenters and tansu makers and sashimonoshi always have at least two jointer planes 長台鉋, jack planes　あらし子鉋 and smoothing planes 仕上げ鉋 sharper than a razor, fettled, and ready to rock and roll before work begins each morning. The same applies to stones. This is a habit that will make your woodworking much more efficient and high-quality.

As for stones, a rough carborundum stone is essential. If you can afford it, and if you like Super-Blue-Paper steel with all that tungsten and vanadium, a rough diamond plate is worth having as well, but is not essential.

Next, you need a 1000 grit waterstone. This is the stone you will use the most (time wise) once you learn how to sharpen efficiently. The Imanishi Bester brand stones are the best made nowadays, especially if you can get two that were cooked at the perimeter of the kiln (versus the center) and so tend to be harder lot by lot. King makes a fine stone, but they are narrower and softer, IMO.

While not absolutely necessary, a 2000 grit stone is useful in reducing the sharpening process and saving your more expensive finishing stones. If weight/space is a concern, they can be left in the shop.

A 6,000 grit finishing stone is mandatory. In fact, most everything but your best planes and chisels can end with this stone.

A 10,000 grit King Goldstone is a must have.

The very highest-quality natural nagura you can get is worth every penny when combined with a Goldstone.

When you get much more experience, a full-size natural finishing stone is heavenly, even orgasmic, but until you have enough experience (and good enough tools) the $400 or $500 for a top-quality natural stone would be a waste. In fact, without years spent on a Goldstone (or equivalent) you would not even be able to choose the right natural stone if a hundred were lined up in front of you. I would be very hesitant to buy one outside of Japan for that matter. A wide selection at hand is important.

A general rule for woodworking tools (not necessarily for knives or swords) is to use the hardest medium stones and finishing stones you can get, because once you have created a paste/slurry, the stone must function as a flat plane for sharpening a straight (vs rounded) edge. A hard stone stays flat longer, of course. However, hard stones tend to clog and "drag" steel deposits, negating the sharpening effect. So a balance of hard/soft is necessary. The steel in your tools will have a say in this too. But better too hard than too soft.

The cheapest and best way to flatten waterstones is so unsexy that amateurs don't typically don't get it. Forget plates and w/d sandpaper and diamond paste and diamond plates. They all work very well, but the cost adds up quickly. Just get a nice thick piece of float glass. 1/2" is perfect, but thinner will do if you have a good backer board. The garbage bin behind a glass shop will have lots of broken pieces you can scrounge for free. Dull the sharp edges with a brick or stone. Scratch the hell out one face of the glass with your carborundum stone. Rub your stones directly on the roughened glass with liberal water. Flat surface. No contaminants. No cost. This is how professionals in Japan, the home of the waterstone, do it.

For what it is worth.

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

My recommendations based on many years of professional experience. This set of stones is the cheapest in the long run and will satisfy all your needs.

>content removed for brevity<

This is how professionals in Japan, the home of the waterstone, do it.

For what it is worth.

Stan

I don't know where to start with this, and I know it won't end well so I won't even try.

However, I must say this is one of the most disappointing and distressing things I've ever had the misfortune to have read in my life, and very deeply saddens and distresses me both personally and professionally.


Stu.

[Archie England]

Stu, I greatly appreciate that you responded! Especially so that those of us learning the ropes (and hopefully maturing as sharpeners) could have a point of reference.

[Archie England]

Basic information: First, forget Shapton: too little bang for the buck. Big bucks, short lifespan. If, heaven forbid, you do need to dress your stones though, rubbing two hollow-faced stones of the same grit together is a cheap and handy way to flatten both stones at the same time. This method works just as well in the shop

As for stones, a rough carborundum stone is essential.

Next, you need a 1000 grit waterstone. This is the stone you will use the most (time wise) once you learn how to sharpen efficiently. The Imanishi Bester brand stones are the best made nowadays, especially if you can get two that were cooked at the perimeter of the kiln (versus the center) and so tend to be harder lot by lot.While not absolutely necessary, a 2000 grit stone is useful in reducing the sharpening process and saving your more expensive finishing stones.

A 6,000 grit finishing stone is mandatory. In fact, most everything but your best planes and chisels can end with this stone.

A 10,000 grit King Goldstone is a must have.

When you get much more experience, a full-size natural finishing stone is heavenly, even orgasmic, but until you have enough experience (and good enough tools) the $400 or $500 for a top-quality natural stone would be a waste. In fact, without years spent on a Goldstone (or equivalent) you would not even be able to choose the right natural stone if a hundred were lined up in front of you. I would be very hesitant to buy one outside of Japan for that matter. A wide selection at hand is important.

A general rule for woodworking tools (not necessarily for knives or swords) is to use the hardest medium stones and finishing stones you can get, because once you have created a paste/slurry, the stone must function as a flat plane for sharpening a straight (vs rounded) edge. A hard stone stays flat longer, of course. However, hard stones tend to clog and "drag" steel deposits, negating the sharpening effect. So a balance of hard/soft is necessary. The steel in your tools will have a say in this too. But better too hard than too soft.
Stan

Thanks Stan for showing us your line-up: coarse (not a waterstone), 1k, 2k, 6k, and 10k (plus perhaps a 30-40k natural). That's very close to my preference though preferences vary greatly and what works for others, works just as well as what I like. I do disagree with the low grit choice: I much prefer the coarse waterstones--King Deluxe 300 or Sigma Power ceramic 400. Both these stones work marvelously at preparing a blade back. Of the two, the SPceramic is better, and I've heard that Stu's Cerax 320 is a tremedously great stone. Having used sand paper (SS) and oil stones, I definitely prefer the waterstones.

Also, there's a common knowledge amongst the old-timers that it takes three (not two) stones (which don't have to be the same grit) to achieve flatness. Perhaps your skill level enables you to achieve flatness otherwise. Also, many diamond plates (I prefer the iWood or Atoma) deliver superior flattening. The iWood 300 that I use is not that pricey and probably costs less than a 1/2" glass plate. (Thanks for the idea of where to ask for free glass cut offs.) BTW, I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest way to maintain my investment in waterstones. Great stones deserve a quality maintenance stone.

One last note: From experience, the Bester 1200 is a very good stone but it falls short of either my Chosera 1000 or my Sigma Power ceramic 1000 or 1200. That said, I'd rather have the Bester/Imanashi stones than my old Nortons (which I started with). But even the Nortons were faster than the scary sharp or oil stones. What I've found is this, once you've reached to the 6k and higher ranges, there's less difference/distinction in honing. Others here attest to the superb results of the Shapton Pro 12,000 (BTW, it would have been good to state that you meant the Shapton Glass stones rather than the Pros). I've read on forums that Naniwa superstones work wonders at 8k and above. So for me, our money is spent most wisely below the 6k level--because that's where the real work is done. And that brings me back to an earlier comment--the 1000 grit stone is a most important stone.

Oh, I would contend for the Sigma Power ceramics--400, 1200, 6000, 13000--as the must have stones. (And I regularly use a Chosera 1k, 3k and/or a Gesshin 4k, too. My Bester 1200 is my go-to for knife sharpening.)

YMMV

[David Weaver]

I don't know where to start with this, and I know it won't end well so I won't even try.

However, I must say this is one of the most disappointing and distressing things I've ever had the misfortune to have read in my life, and very deeply saddens and distresses me both personally and professionally.

Stu.

Stu..you're such an emotional guy!

[Chris Griggs]

I’m looking at these two sets:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1668
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shpro2pcset1.html

Stu’s Sigma Power set + shipping would be at just under $200, and if I got the Shapton set I’d have to get a diamond stone to flatten them (or something similar like a lapping plate + loose diamonds) and some kind of stone holder, so it too would get me to right around if not slightly above $200.

So questions:

1) Would the #6000 Sigma Power and #5000 Shapton stones be fine enough for wood working purposes if followed by a strop? I could step up to the “bigger” 3 stone sets, but then we’re in the $300 ballpark I’m trying to avoid.
2) The Shapton stones are really appealing to me due to the splash-and-go nature of them. However, I’ve heard really good things about the Sigma Powers. How long do they really need to soak? Is it a problem for them to completely dry out between uses?

Getting back to your original questions, I think you were on the right track. I would personally recommend the 1K,6K, iWood, sigma set. There are other stones out there in that price range that I like and other slightly more expensive stone that I like a little better (personally and not categorically), but I do not know where else you will find a set that good, with a diamond stone for that price.

As for question 1) Yes the sigma 6k will get you plenty sharp enough - it gets a very fine edge. Straight off the wet stone will be sharp enough for most things, but if you want it sharper you can use the stone dry or go to a strop/MDF/other substrate loaded with green compound. You can buy a higher grit stone later on that will get things a little sharper with a little less effort, but I really don't think you will find that edge straight of the 6k (especially if its dried) lacking in any way.

Question 2) The easiest thing to do is just to leave them in water. If your shop is cold, get some Tupperware/Gladware/whatever and just bring containers in and out of the shop with you. If it really is too inconvenient to leave them soaking, 1-5 minutes of soak is plenty (the 6k can be used with just a splash but works better with a little soak time). Mine both live in water.

I can't speak to the Shaptons, as I haven't used them. Also, I don't have years of professional experience with Japanese woodworkers and/or carpenters. What I am is a consumer on budget, who like you does a bunch of research before I buy, and who sincerely believes that you will not get more for you money than with the Sigma 1k, 6k, iWood set.

[michael osadchuk]

Adrian, as you are on a budget, consider foregoing the pricer Lee Valley honing guide and look at the vise type (also called elipse) honing guide at something like a sixth of the price - which you can also get at LV....

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/pag...072,43078&ap=1

as well as at other places, perhaps even at a couple of dollars less.

I have both LV honing guides mk. 1 and mk. 2 yet I often go to elipse style guide which has much to recommend it apart from cost ...... because the roller is much narrow than that on on the LV guide, it is easier to put a significant camber on the blade edge (without having to buy the 'cambered' roller LV sells as an accessory...... I find the elipse style guide holds the blade more securely - less possibly for side to side slippage ........ the vise style is a bit less convenient in that there is no automatic 1 or 2 degree secondary bevel settings (you would have to "measure out" and remember such secondary setting such as deducting a couple of millimeters from the vise grips standard settings)... the vise grip guide doesn't hold blades with tapered sides as well (fortunately almost all blades have parallel sides....... you can marginally improve on the vise grip guides as received by filing away the paint that builds up in the corners where the blades are gripped so the blade seats into the corners better....

Also check out Derek Cohen's inthewoodshop website for his 10 cent honing guide and I recall Lie-Nielsen had a similar shopmade honing guide (or shopmade guide for quickly establishing various honing angles)....

I've have mostly King waterstones, some natural Japanese waterstones, a rough diamond stone to keep them flat and also use the green honing compound (also on a strop for kitchen knives)..... I don't doubt that some of the newer waterstones are better (stay flatter longer, etc.) but what I have will surely outlast me and they do everything I continue aspire to in the way of sharpening honing......

If you want to a little splurge (sp?), LV in their holiday catalog, has a 20-40 times LED illuminated magnifier for $12, which while not a 200-300 x scope, has an exponentially higher power than eye loupes and should show you scratches /corrugations and the degree of remaining jaggedness at the blade edge still remaining after 4000 grit media and thereby raising your sharpening game when you are ready for another uptick....
http://www.leevalley.com/en/gifts/Pa...57&cat=4,53212

good luck

michael

[David Weaver]

I can't speak to the Shaptons, as I haven't used them.

The professional stones certainly aren't short-life stones like they are implied to be above. I think that the finish stone I use the most has lost about a millimeter of its 15 in the last 5 years, and the 1000, which I use the most often of my medium stones has probably lost about the same (it has probably done half the work the 15k stone does, though, because of other 1k stones around to play with).

I know for sure we talk about stones more than professionals do, by a mile, and the professionals we hear from (aside from george and warren mickley, probably) spend their time promoting classes, hard merchandise and videos. They are definitely not where I'd go for advice. I don't know of any professional who does some elaborate run-up through various grits working an entire bevel (or even to work a microbevel), and most of them use one or two stones and a grinder (I think warren is the exception, mentioning that he uses a coarser stone to do a lot of his primary work, but he is working with softer or laminated tools, and most of us are not).

I hope that my comment that I always go back to the shaptons isn't seen as an endorsement that they have something that other stones don't have, or that there is some magic answer about one stone being better than another. They are just my preference (the pros, not the glass, I wouldn't advise anyone to spend money on the glasstones). The only folks who will be so critical about what should be used will be beginners, and maybe carvers who have good reason to favor a very hard stone. I think if I did more woodworking and time was more important, I would favor faster and harder stones (which would mean they would be less fine, there's no free lunch with cutting speed).

I've heard some nutty ideas relayed through someone else about what some japanese traditional woodworkers think, and I wouldn't use their advice for someone in the US or europe who is working wood. Even something so far as professional carpenters claiming that if they used a synthetic stone, they'd have to throw away their (japanese) chisels because they would be ruined. maybe someone on here told me that. A lot of the advice about having those 5 stone run-throughs to sharpen are either for therapeutic use or antiquated advice based on some types of natural stones that can't make large steps.

Decent medium stone, decent fine stone. Doesn't matter what it is, you can learn to use it.

[David Weaver]

I've had mostly King waterstones,..... I don't doubt that some of the newer waterstones are better

I've been through just about every type of stone that can be practically used for woodworking, and I still like the king 8k an awful lot. It seems to have fallen back a little bit in terms of favor here in the US, but it's a nice finishing stone.