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Thread: Comparing thoughts on SawStop

  1. #61
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    The original petition to mandate the device would not have made sense unless Steve Gass had not shown that it could be done, that the technology was viable. This type of scenario plays itself out in governmental agencies everyday, some we like, some we don't, and most we of which we are hardly aware. Decisions are made that enrich some and empoverish others.
    I doubt anyone here is so naive to think that at least a few of these Washington operatives don't pursue their agenda knowing full well their goals run counter to the interests and safety of most Americans. If nothing else can be said, at least Mr. Gass' invention is designed to make something safer, putting it in the category of a well intentioned initative. His obvious passion for our safety should be enough by itself to temper our cynicism. If his goal was to just make alot of money, he could have found easier ways than developing this device.

    Our lives are rife with mandated safety devices, some of which were received contentiously, and that we now take for granted. Electrical circuitry alone has countless safety features. Many of these things are not well received initially and only after time become appreciated. If we are then honest with ourselves we should be willing to admit that they were good ideas that we would not have accepted without mandate.

  2. #62
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    I am truely and sincerely sorry that I brought this issue up and chimed in here. This was to be a comparision of ideas and not an inquisition of those with differing view points resulting in a civics lesson. As you know, I have always believed and more so than ever believe that Mr. Gass can simply jump in the lake. This forum is about bring together woodworkers and not dividing them. For a little while, I was hoping that this issue would simply chill out and take the back burner and allow us to focus on more agreeable subjects that can bring us together. Instead, like a festering wound, it just keeps going and going and going. We are now up to page FIVE on the responses. If crying uncle and agreeing with you all will allow us to focus on more interesting topics, than I cry uncle. But lets just put this issue to rest because 1). we have hammerd a dead horse into the ground and 2). there is nothing more that we all can do about it. At least me. If some of you wish to continue, then take it up with President Bush. But please, enough is enough!

  3. #63
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    As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Singer
    As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...

    Maybe they were pork franks. Or perhaps they were raised for experimentation, in a lab somewhere, fed lots of whole grains and what not.

    We should stop the testing on frankfurters !

    I installed the bandsaw version of the sawstop on my meat cutting band saw and it must be defective as it keeps triggering. Getting kind of costly and I still have some pork butts to cut up.


    Keith

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Singer
    As I predicted ....this is quite a subject! We have not even discussed how many hot dogs lost lives during the testing.....this is really sad...I think the Sausage Association should rise up...this kind of treatment is not Kosher regardless of the origin of the species...

    PETS - People for Ethical Treatment of Sausages
    Rich

    "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
    - General George Patton Jr

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Emch
    I am truely and sincerely sorry that I brought this issue up and chimed in here. This was to be a comparision of ideas and not an inquisition of those with differing view points resulting in a civics lesson. As you know, I have always believed and more so than ever believe that Mr. Gass can simply jump in the lake. This forum is about bring together woodworkers and not dividing them. For a little while, I was hoping that this issue would simply chill out and take the back burner and allow us to focus on more agreeable subjects that can bring us together. Instead, like a festering wound, it just keeps going and going and going. We are now up to page FIVE on the responses. If crying uncle and agreeing with you all will allow us to focus on more interesting topics, than I cry uncle. But lets just put this issue to rest because 1). we have hammerd a dead horse into the ground and 2). there is nothing more that we all can do about it. At least me. If some of you wish to continue, then take it up with President Bush. But please, enough is enough!

    Dev,

    Open discussion is good, people are different and will think differently. We're not swearing or gouging anyone here. it's all good.

  7. #67
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    That is a good point! I didnt think about all the bad treatment of winnies as I simply like to eat them esp. when piled high with kraut and chile. Ummm. Or how about those german winnies. A grilled brat with a french roll where a hole was poked and the brat was hanging out of both ends. That is german fast food. I murdered a massive number of those from roadside stands!

    I saw on the "Power Tool Nationals" where they actually took a portable bandsaw and used it to make a power tool dragster. This is where they drag race belt sanders and what not. This bandsaw was nothing like I have ever seen. It had a 3 HP, 3 phase induction motor on it and was all stainless. It cuts cow bodies in half and so its called "The Heffer Halver". You could almost not pick it up. So how many folks have been injured by Heffer halvers cutting the wrong meat by products? A portable 3 HP, 3 phase bandsaw. If that is not dangerous, I dont know what is.

  8. #68
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    Dev.....at least at my end, there were no ill feelings and I didn't even get heated up. I only stated my opinion. Saved the heat for those poor frankfurters!
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Christopher
    Dev,

    Open discussion is good, people are different and will think differently. We're not swearing or gouging anyone here. it's all good.
    Exactly right, Keith. What good would a forum be if there were not some differences of opinion. Threads would have two posts, the question and the answer. Boooring.

    Ken Fitzgerald has expressed his resentment of the petition process. While I don't exactly agree, I understand the feeling, and am more than willing to listen to his point of view to see if it makes sense to me, and, in light of his arguments, whether my own opinions still hold water. By definition, we all believe our opinions to be right or we would change them until we do. I think it is a sign of strength to be open minded and willing to measure your opinions against others.

    This group moderates itself better than most, and when more heat than light is generated, our moderators are willing to step in and hold up the red card (love that illustration, BTW).

    Greg

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waag
    I stated in an earlier post that I wonder why some people are so vehemantly against Sawstop. It appears that many are upset about Mr. Gass's petition to the Consumer Product Safety Commision. I can understand that, as none of us likes to have something forced upon us. However, I do think that some of the resentment over this issue is misplaced, not fully informed, and needs to be viewed in context. To that end, a few points in attempt to clarify, add some information, and some context.
    Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy and you aren't the first person to tout the Sawstop with a religious zeal. It does appear that you think that everyone who disagrees with you is just misinformed and that once you present the facts to them they will see the error of their ways and change their mind. That's just not going to happen.

    Do I think its a good tool? well maybe, I haven't seen it in person so I can't say. Do I think its a quantum leap in safety? It looks like it and it'll probably save a finger or two. Will I buy one? No way. I was turned off their their heavy handed attempt to regulate their product into the market. Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.
    Dennis

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis McDonaugh
    Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy...Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.
    With all due respect Dennis, that's not really fair. If people want to tout things with religious zeal, that's their prerogative. That's the beauty of this site--if you tire of someone's view you don't have to keep reading their posts. That's your prerogative.

    I was put off by the whole petition thing too, but that certainly wouldn't stop me from buying the saw if I was in the market for one, could afford it, and felt that it provided features that I valued that could not be found in any other saw. But if you and others feel that that's a reason to boycott it, that's obviously your choice.

  12. #72
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    sawstop has been disected so manmy times the conversation is a repeat of a repeat.

    as far as hobby or amatuer usage of sawstop...

    i could care less if one uses its technology. your money,your hobby and bottom line your "dime".

    petition....

    if a petition makes you angry and you wont buy a product even though it improves yours safety, well...yer own your own there.

    professionally speaking...

    i think it should be a law and should have a time frame for professional shops to take hold of its technology. give shops a chance to update there shops and breaks on insurance. those who reject the technology should pay higher premiums. i think 5yrs is plenty of time for this .

    union shops... they can kizz my......jack

  13. #73
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    I agree with Dennis...

    Also, a very important point was not brought up. These days, I am so busy building "Stickley Kitchens" that I have not had that much chance to work on my hobby. Building and restoring machine tools!

    In talking with Jeff Mahachek of northfield, an important issue came up. Accuracy. I still believe that one of the most accurate table saws ever built is the oliver 88. Why? Well, if you have ever seen one, you would know that the entire front face is about 1 1/2 inches of thick steel plate! All of the way systems and guts are hung off this plate. There is nothing delicate about it. And when you see how they machined those curved ways, then you begin to see why the American Machine Tool industry was king in the hey day of US machine tools.

    In the early days, it was not possible to actually tilt the saw arbor which all you unisaw types take for granted. Instead, you had saws like the early oliver 60 and 90 or the tannewitz in which the whole table tilts and the arbor remains constant. This was not the best design but until a better way to power the arbor and a way to raise and lower the arbor came along, this is how it was done. It was awkward and difficult to use these and even harder to attach and use jigs. The advent of smaller electrical motors and precision gears and what not changed all this and the table became fixed and the arbor now tilts.

    But the accuracy of a saw depends on many factors. There are tons of items that affect it. First, you have the immediate run-out of the actual spindle. How accurate are those spindle bearings? Then, you have the spindle axis relative to say your mitre slots or fence setups. If the axis of the saw spindle is canted, you have issues. Then this assembly is held in space by a vertical way system that allows you to raise and lower it. More opportunity for error. Lastly, this entire system has to mounted on a curvalinear way system to allow you to tilt the axis of your blade. Most of you will know this as the trunnions. At any rate, the rididity and ability to prevent motion in all but one direction is critical. If I have slop in any of these subsystems, I have the potential for error. In an attempt to really lock down this unwanted motion, oliver used this super heavy mounting plate. Northfield has a very similar system but their mounting plate fits ontop of the body just below the main top.

    We should be grateful that with all this in and out, up and down, and canting over to 45 degrees, that we can still cut anything with a degree of repeatable accuracy. And now we need to add one more major degree of freedom to this mess. As I understand it, the saw stop system drops the entire arbor assembly downwards while also pushing the cawl into the blade. This is how the blade disappears. Am I right here? And how fast does this all happen? That is a fast traverse of a linear type of way. Can it be done with a satisfactory degree of accuracy.. (i.e. No noticiable reduction in accuracy along any of the currently used degrees of freedom)? Well, yes. By using a set of recirculating ball, linear ways such as those made by THK, this can be done with ease. But these ways with the needed accuracy to make me happy cost about $500 to $600 dollars. Anything else **WILL** introduce more error into this already complex picture not to mention complicate the current state of the art.

    Being of the KISS mentality, I once again find this a difficult pill to swallow. I would rather have a simpler design with more accuracy.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis McDonaugh
    Ken, this whole Sawstop discussion just drives me crazy and you aren't the first person to tout the Sawstop with a religious zeal. It does appear that you think that everyone who disagrees with you is just misinformed and that once you present the facts to them they will see the error of their ways and change their mind. That's just not going to happen.

    Do I think its a good tool? well maybe, I haven't seen it in person so I can't say. Do I think its a quantum leap in safety? It looks like it and it'll probably save a finger or two. Will I buy one? No way. I was turned off their their heavy handed attempt to regulate their product into the market. Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone.
    Dennis,

    No religious zeal intended. I don't think I even have that. I do not think that everyone is misinformed, nor am I'm looking to change minds ( I've stated several times in my posts that it is up to the individual as to whether they have any interest in this product or not, that is clearly none of my business. I am curious on occasion as to a person's reasoning one way or the other so as to understand different viewpoints). I do see unfounded statements made and those could influence people's choices, which is just not fair or right. So I'm not "touting" Sawstop, but I am "touting" an attempt to base statements in fact so that everyone's decision can be a well informed one, whatever the direction.

    As to "Buy one if you like, but leave the rest of us who don't want anything to do with it alone." I'll remind you that you addressed a post to me, and I did not ask, let alone tell you to read my posts. Please respect my rights as I have respected yours.

    Sincerely,
    Ken
    Ken Waag

  15. #75
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    Wow! What a thread this turned out to be.
    When I first saw the post a day or two back at 0430, I knew it would be a good one.
    I don't really lean one way or the other on the issue. From what I've seen the Sawstop appears to be pretty well made, brake system aside. I don't put it in the same category as some of the saws in Dev's posts, but I don't put the PM 66 or the Delta Unisaw in the same category as those saws either.
    I sometimes actually wonder just how long the tablesaw, in it's current configuration will be around. I had the opportunity to play around with a high pressure cutter that used silica as the abrasive cutting medium. It was being used to cut 1" thick plate steel. I grabbed a wooden pallet and cut it up with the machine just for kicks, and to see if it could cut wood, it did, and it did it very well. total width of the "kerf" , .010.
    We're using high pressure water and slurry mixtures to cut plate steel instead of plasma arcs and torches now. We can drill plate steel with high pressure sand and water and control the depth with ultrasonics, and how about laser technology. It hasn't been all that long since lasers were made that were within the reach of a small shop or an individual? where will this eventually lead wood working. I'm sure Keith could offer some insight on this subject.
    I'm not waiting for the technology to improve the safety of the tablesaw, I'm waiting for the technology that replaces it, and gets rid of the spinning blade altogether, and I don't believe it is that far off.
    The technology in the metal/ machining field is way ahead of anything in the woodworking field. Alot of these technologies work just fine when applied to wood.
    Like Ken, I have one of those jobs where I get exposed to all sorts of new technologies, and I am sometimes allowed to experiment a bit with them and go outside of the box, so to speak. When I think about how some of them could be applied to woodworking it really boggles the mind.
    If you ever want to replace your drillpress, mortiser, dovetail system, Dado blade and most of what your router can do, have a machinist buddy show you how a Bridgeport works. A little more spindle speed, and you'd be set. You'll also learn what an R8 collet is., and alot of stuff about tapered spindles, and Jacob's chucks, that still doesn't make any sense to me. But heck... it's cool.
    I guess I'm a forward thinking kinda guy. Maybe way off base, with respect to the subject at hand.
    Thanks for a great thread everyone, it's been great to read. And I didn't need the Cliff notes either.
    :
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 04-26-2005 at 9:21 PM.

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