Yeah, he used to call the screws "metal dowels":-)Originally Posted by Andrew Joiner
Mike
Contributor
Yeah, he used to call the screws "metal dowels":-)
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
Interestingly, I went in one of these "Amish-made" furniture stores here in Houston last weekend. The furniture - mostly Mission-style in cherry or QSWO - looked quite nice as displayed. And it's not cheap, e.g., $2k - $3k for an oak dresser.
However, I was absolutely shocked when opening a drawer to find that all drawer slides on the furniture were cheap side mount metal slides, like what you would find on Kraftmaid cabinets.
Seeing that really left a bad taste in mouth...I could never consider a piece "fine furniture" with a glaring chrome drawer slide visible every time the drawer was opened. That said, had it been of the undermount variety, and nicely hidden, I think I would have been OK with it.
Member
I'm pretty sure that there are screws in some or much of the furniture the Hall bros made for the Greenes. I'm positive I have seen X-rays of the joinery that revealed use of screws. That basically set it for me, I don't use screws much, but I don't get my butt in a knot when I do.
at least I think the Hall stuff built for the Greenes qualify as fine furniture. :-)
Paul
Member
I have seen a piece of "Amish" furniture (from actual Amish country, no less) that was at least partly made with thinly veneered particle board. In my opinion, anything that has a tendency to disintegrate if it gets a little water on it isn't "fine."
The joinery was also clearly done with a router. That doesn't necessarily make it bad joinery, I just thought it odd for an allegedly Amish made piece. Perhaps they use power in their woodworking shops just as they do in their dairies.
Member
My understanding is that pocket hole screws are a traditional way of joining table tops to aprons. Chris Schwarz mentions it on an original Shaker table here: http://blog.lostartpress.com/2010/05...can-sell-that/
I would agree with him that staples do not constitute fine furniture.
It's virtually impossible to have a strong connection of relatively thin table top to base without some sort of metal fastener. Sometimes you will see just glue blocks on antiques, but usually there are a few popped loose because of wood movement or because the glue joint has broken down.
[OP]
Member
This has been very interesting reading in this thread. I was hesitant about posting it and have been pondering it for a few months.
I'm not sure any of us can decide if we have made "fine" furniture. I think that's for future generations to decide.
I really think if you have all the elements in place as far as design, wood selection and craftsmanship then it needs to stand the test of time. By that I mean it needs to be taken care of and left unchanged.
I've seen to many pieces bought at antique stores only to be cut up and modified for a use other than what was intended.
I may never know if what I have built will ever be considered fine furniture. Hopefully it will still be in use and taken care of when I pass. If that happens then I think I might have succeeded.
Member
Who cares what anyone thinks?
Are you building it for them...or for yourself?
Life's too short to worry about what other people think or don't think, IMHO.
Contributor
Yeah. If every bean box is "high end" maybe "fine" means anything not made for the kitchen.
Member
Whenever I hear or see the word "Fine" tacked up with furniture, art or whatever it just makes me cringe. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago it meant something, but today I find the overwhelming majority of "fine" whatever, the word is used to justify someones expensive education, appease ones ego or an attempt to church up poor work. Like calling an inkjet print a giclee, a saying about a pig and lipstick comes to mind - it just ain't no silver chloride print.
It is a title that is earned after years of hard work and recognition and not self-assigned, it belongs to the masters like Krenov, Weston and Shore. But, I highly doubt any of them would have used or approved of the word "fine" in the description of their work, at least not the cheap substitute it is today.
Last edited by James Conrad; 12-03-2012 at 6:00 PM.
Member
I think another related discussion is "What is the difference between fine furniture and 'best' quality furniture." Regardless of construction methods (somewhat), to me joinery and finish determine a piece's quality. I consider many pieces of furniture "fine" quality, but if I see a glue line in a panel or a hairline gap in a joint it gets demoted to "fine and/or well done, but not top end".
- Hutch
In Memoriam
I liken "fine furniture" to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's comment about hard-core pornography...it's hard to describe but you know it when you see it.
Cody
Logmaster LM-1 sawmill, 30 hp Kioti tractor w/ FEL, Stihl 290 chainsaw, 300 bf cap. Solar Kiln
Member
I think that for me there can not be glaring shortcuts. It just feels cheap.
For example. I just went to visit an Amish funiture maker just outside of Lancaster, PA. They sold a chest of drawers fo 3-4k and has been in bussines for 2 genrations. For the most part, the funiture was well built. Solid woods, shiplaped backs, no plywood, and lot of other great selling features.
However, when you opened a drawer you could see signs of cutting corners. The drawer box was simple butt joints that were stapled together and then the drawer face was overlayed. The sales persons told me that this was a time honored method that allowed for movement in the wood and that these drawer could last a life time but it just left cheap to me. I could live with drawer slides, espically for heavy items, but the staples... nope.
Contributor
I visited an Amish furniture maker up state from Lancaster. His shop was exactly like any other commercial furniture maker, except it used another source of power than electricity. But the table saw, for example, was a modern table saw.
The quality of his work was not high - it was typical commercial quality, the same as you would see coming from a non-Amish commercial woodworking shop.
One funny story from the visit was that I saw a stack of crest rails for rocking chairs in the corner. Each one had a design in the face of the crest rail. So I asked him, "Do you carve those crest rails during the evening?"
He replied, "No, I buy them from a place that presses the design into them with a hydraulic press."
So much for old time hand work.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
"Fine" to me is doing your project the "best" way using the "best" construction methods. Power tools are fine, hand tools are fine. The "no shortcuts" comment from above is a nice way to think about it. I don't have hard and fast rules, but I'll try to explain. For example:
Sometimes screws are the best way. Always good to let your table top move. Still fine furniture.
Sometimes screws are used because you're in a hurry or it's easier, even though a mortise and tenon could be executed. If you use screws, it's not "fine" anymore.
Member
This plus attention to detail such as color and grain matching.
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