A chip breaker reminder

[David Cockey]

There appear to be several approaches to eliminating tearout:

• One approach is to use a plane with a chipbreaker and set the chipbreaker very close to the edge, within a shaving thickness or so. If the plane tends to clog then opening the throat may be needed.

• Another approach is close the throat to not much wider than a shaving, and use a higher angle for the cutting surface if need. This approach avoids clogging by use of a "single" iron plane or with a plane with a chipbreaker the chipbreaker is set well back from the edge.

My recollection of reading various experts on woodworking for better than three decades is the chipbreaker close to the edge approach was commonly advocated in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Then it fell out of favor to the tight mouth and high angle approach. Now the chipbreaker close to the edge approach is making a resurgence.

Perhaps the "truth" is that both approaches can work to prevent tearout. There may even be a continuim of combinations of chipbreaker to edge distance and throat openings which will prevent tearout, but for a particular set of throat opening geometry and chipbreaker shape only some of these combinations will work without clogging.

[george wilson]

Agreed. This thread has gone on too long.

[David Weaver]

It's Jon,David.

I hope Jon wouldn't be offended by my guess!

[David Weaver]

Agreed. This thread has gone on too long.

It's too bad, because there was some very interesting literature posted in it. Maybe we could get the thread torched and put the info in a new thread.

[bob blakeborough]

It's too bad, because there was some very interesting literature posted in it. Maybe we could get the thread torched and put the info in a new thread.

Rather than completely torching it, maybe just close it to further posts. Disagreements or not as to what was said aside, there was still some good discussions. Leaving it for people to read is not a bad thing...

[Jason Coen]

English Mechanic and World of Science, Volume LV., 1892.

[Cameron James]

I recall feeling quite disappointed when I read Chris Schwarz' blog that there was no mention of those centrally involved in the discussions (primarily here, at WoodCentral and WoodNet). Indeed, there was a LOT of discussion and video and pictorials, efforts to test different parameters, and opinions one way and the other before CS posted on his blog. I read Chris' posts and enjoy his insights. He has contributed a great deal to the WW community, and readers look up to him. When he did not provide names and more information, the impression left is that these important others were unimportant to the conclusions reached. I do not think that was his intention, but it was taken that way when you read the subsequent postings on a few forums (e.g. "Chip breakers by Chris Schwarz" appeared on WoodNet).

As David (C) states, this was an exciting discovery. Notably, it seems not to have been a discovery for some, who claim it as old hat. I started a thread on the Australian Forum, posting some of the pictorial research I had done (and posted here as well), only to get comments from some "old timers" who were irritated by this, as if it were proof that the world of WW forums was populated by amateurs. This is a reason why I admire David so much - for someone of his stature to come out and openly admit he did not know and that this changed the way he thought, well that is just stupendous. Thank you again David.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It is obvious to whom you are referring to, Chippy, since he is not here to answer for himself, partly because he hasn't been on the internet long, at least not looking on forums, so I will put a word in for him since I have known him for a long time. I dont think he considers himself an "old timer" I'm pretty sure he doesn't appreciate that! , ' I still have a way to go for that' or 'not this his year maybe next year' he says with wry smile on his face, next year he will say the same thing no doubt, although perhaps you were not being kind about it anyway?.

He's not actually that old but what he is though is one of the most experienced qualified carpenters and joiners and cabinet makers (of fine furniture) your ever likely to meet. If he was in continental Europe he would probably be called a Master however that term (qualification) isnt used in Australia as I understand it. To say he is modest at what he has done or is doing is an understatement, he excels at understating what he has done. There are probably people like him everywhere but I dont know of anybody that spans the range of work he does or has done, everything from new homes and furniture to custom fine furniture and working on heritage homes, government listed heritage buildings, Government House in Adelaide, libraries, rooms with wall to wall bookcases and wainscoting, staircases just to name a few. He has indentured and trained many apprentices (in Australia thats a 4 year commitment it used to be 5), something that is less common for tradesman to take on themselves over the years around here, its speaks volumes for the guy to take the responsibility and is a world apart from someone taking some money for a lesson and then saying they taught hundreds or thousands of people as some of the guru's do. He has also employed and further trained countless other qualified Carpenters, Joiners, Cabinet Makers and has been offered positions to teach at Technical college, as recent as the past few weeks he was offered another position. My point being if Chippy says that Carpenters, Joiners and Cabinet Makers are taught about the function and use of the cap iron [here] its probably worth listening to him! I've been on jobs with him (watching mostly) and he gives an apprentice a task knowing he will 'stuff' it up, he says to me 'he will be back in five minutes then he will listen', when they stop arguing or thinking they ''know'' then he can teach them.

AFAIK he wasn't irritated at your pictorials or basis for the article (he said he liked you taking the effort to show it), he was irritated because you claimed that Carpenters and Cabinet Makers are not taught about cap irons and how to use them (its edited out now), its obvious he is in a position to be able to offer a reasonable opinion, but you argued that there is no documentation so therefor it can not be true. He mentioned some Australian texts that point to the function and use of cap iron and distance to set, at least one of those texts are still used in the Australian high school education system, but you didnt respond, he also spoke to a high school woodwork teacher and confirmed that they still teach it. The other point was the way you first wrote the post/article it read like you discovered it and were enlightening everyone, you hadn't given credit to where you got your information (these forums etc) , since then the posts have been edited but to him (and no doubt others) at the time not being aware of these discussions on this forum or others it appeared arrogant and false. Well before this topic came to light he mentioned that Mr CS doesn't set his plane up correctly e.g cap iron and was baffled how he could teach others to use handtools when he still has a lot of learning to do, from his point of view it was probably a gruff but fair comment, but instead of listening people get defensive and think its about having a go at someone. So, no he didnt say that the internet is [only] populated by ammeters but that there appears to be a lot of people unduly taking or given credit or exaggerating their expertise. On the other hand I know he admires work done by many on the internet.

Having said all that Chippy is good bloke, even if some of his comments might come across on a forum as short, he is generous to a fault, has incredible patients (probably has to teaching apprentices) and would help anybody with anything so long as they are polite.



Kind Regards
Cameron

[seth lowden]

Jason, thanks for the screen shots. I searched for that reference and looked it over a bit more. Very interesting stuff!

I appreciate this thread being allowed to continue and run its course. Sometimes things need to be said/written, and not everyone is a seasoned diplomat- so toes get stepped on a little.

[Wilbur Pan]

The trouble with the K&K video, I believe, was that it was linked from a university yamagata website in japanese, so there was no way that any of us would've found it. Despite being viewable to the public, we never would've seen it because google wouldn't pick it up if you search in english. Someone who spoke japanese would've needed to chance their way into it and told us about it and provided a link. I'm not sure what tipped off Bill and Steve to dig it up, do you remember? Maybe someone got a hold of some literature with pictures first, or maybe it had to do with Steve's search on the edge wear information that came along with it. Bill probably told me, but I can't remember.

The video is also on Mark Hennebury's site, and my understanding is that it was there for a while, although it's not obvious from the home page that the video is there. Bill and Steve did the legwork to figure out that Kato and Kawai were working on this subject, and got copies of their papers and a high quality version of the video. Mia Iwasaki did the translation of the audio. Bill sent me the video and Mia's translation, and I edited it into an English subtitled version. And as Bill mentioned, this was all worth the effort if for no other reason that the video is hosted in another location on the internet that is more easily accessible, and it won't be lost again.

This version of the video has had over 7,300 views since the subtitling. That's not a bad outreach for a somewhat esoteric woodworking subject. Without knowing the metrics, I'd guess that this is a lot more traffic than the original releases of the video either on the University Yamagata website or on Mark's website.

[Jason Coen]

Jason, thanks for the screen shots. I searched for that reference and looked it over a bit more. Very interesting stuff!

I appreciate this thread being allowed to continue and run its course. Sometimes things need to be said/written, and not everyone is a seasoned diplomat- so toes get stepped on a little.

Hi Seth, my pleasure. Glad you found it interesting.

[David Weaver]

The video is also on Mark Hennebury's site, and my understanding is that it was there for a while, although it's not obvious from the home page that the video is there. Bill and Steve did the legwork to figure out that Kato and Kawai were working on this subject, and got copies of their papers and a high quality version of the video. Mia Iwasaki did the translation of the audio. Bill sent me the video and Mia's translation, and I edited it into an English subtitled version. And as Bill mentioned, this was all worth the effort if for no other reason that the video is hosted in another location on the internet that is more easily accessible, and it won't be lost again.

This version of the video has had over 7,300 views since the subtitling. That's not a bad outreach for a somewhat esoteric woodworking subject. Without knowing the metrics, I'd guess that this is a lot more traffic than the original releases of the video either on the University Yamagata website or on Mark's website.

Wait, just one more thing (sorry, I watched columbo the other day).

Just to clarify a few things, I went back through my april emails (I just don't have that good of a memory to get the events right without it) and Steve was nice enough to separately give me some background on information that I didn't have. The videos were not publicly accessible before Bill and Steve got a hold of the professors, I was wrong about that.

* Bill got wind that the study information was posted in japanese journals (through steve, who posted stuff from the papers in 2005). Some of the papers were translated to english and posted in japan a long time ago. Bill wanted more of them, I guess. Incidentally, Steve told me Brent Beach originally made him aware of the documents that had been posted in English.
* In the quest to find the japanese versions of the journals, Bill incidentally came in contact with Kato and Kawai.
* As a favor to Bill, when K&K provided the papers, they posted their videos on the university of yamagata website (they were not posted anywhere before then).
* Bill provided the link to Mark Hennebury in April, and Mark posted the video from K&K's link on his site.
* the translation stuff happened after that

[Steve Bates]

WOW!!!

I've been fighting basswood for awhile. Being a newbie, I'm frustrated a lot because everything is a learning experience. I read, reckon, and go screw up wood. I'm trying to make that nail-in-wood puzzler that's on "The Woodwright's Shop-Wood and Water" episode for the grandkids. He states basswood is good for compressing when wet.

I'm trying for good finishes with a plane but I continually have tearout. This video sure has opened my eyes! The audio just flew over my head.

Thanks a lot for this information! I reckon now I'll have better luck tomorrow.

[Derek Cohen]

The other point was the way you first wrote the post/article it read like you discovered it and were enlightening everyone, you hadn't given credit to where you got your information (these forums etc) , since then the posts have been edited but to him (and no doubt others) at the time not being aware of these discussions on this forum or others it appeared arrogant and false.

Cameron, I do take exception to your misrepresentation of what I wrote. This is the link to my post:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/c...lly-do-153175/

And this is the first two paragraphs I wrote:

On a few woodworking forums - in the USA and UK - there has been ongoing discussion that has certainly changed my awareness about tuning BD double-ironed planes.

It started with Bill Tindall, a member of WoodCentral, re-discovering a video by Professor Yasunori Kawai and Honorary Professor Chutaro Kato at Yamagata University, as part of their research in the role of cap irons in planing. I recall viewing this some years ago, but the true significance was lost on me as it was all in Japanese. I include a link to the video (on the blog of Wilbur Pan, has added English subtitles added (it runs for 17 minutes)):

Secondly, regardless whom I referred to - I mentioned no names and gave no references - the point was simply to emphasise that we were reinventing the wheel in our discussions, that this information was known to others in times past. Why do feel the need to twist the facts?

Regards from Perth .... actually San Francisco at this time

Derek

[Joe Bailey]

Won't someone please put this thread out of it's misery!

[Ethan Liou]

Jason, thanks for the screen shots. I searched for that reference and looked it over a bit more. Very interesting stuff!

I did the same thing. It is indeed very interesting. Thank you, Janson.