There sometimes does seem to be a "nothing good ever came after 1800, everything got worse" sentiment in some circles of the woodworking world.
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There sometimes does seem to be a "nothing good ever came after 1800, everything got worse" sentiment in some circles of the woodworking world.
[OP]
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After 39 years in a museum,I should be the one advocating that!! But,with the number of screwed up antique tools I've rehabbed,I'm not.Nor do I advocate that everything modern is great,either!!
Last edited by george wilson; 01-03-2013 at 5:37 PM.
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Exactly what I was thinking. The arguments were bizarre the first time this came up, and are more bizarre now. There's nothing philosophical here, or even anything to think about. Either it works or it doesn't.Originally Posted by george wilson
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Kees,
Go back and read the original thread on WoodCentral. Wasn't in Mark Hennebury, one of the proponents of using Kato's information in hand planes, who explained how to file the mouth of a Bailey plane to avoid choking?
Don't tell me your interpretation of what sources you found say. Give me quotes and citations. You've given me ample reason to become a little skeptical of your reading comprehension. While you're searching your sources, I'd like to know of one that suggests filing the leading edge of the cap iron to a blunt angle. You're telling me how they used to do this but not giving me anything I can verify.
If you have a problem with the research by Kato and Kawai take it up with them, not me. It was their research that said they began to see some results of the cap iron at .008" and got good results at .004". I didn't do the research, I'm taking them at their word. Don't tell me how good their research is and then tell me your fantastic results at much greater distances than they found functional. I don't have a problem with their results; if you do, I don't see how it's my fault.
You might want to temper your interpretation of their results with a little knowledge of the cultural and Japanese woodworking traditions. Have you ever stood inside a recently completed Japanese Buddhist temple and looked at the woodwork? I have. The Japanese don't use paints, varnishes or other surface finishes on their wood work. They feel it interferes with their connection to nature. They "polish" or burnish the wood to seal the pores and create a protective kind of skin. They do that with their planes. If that burnished look is what you like, maybe you should consider Japanese tools but I hope you like working on your knees. Using them on a Western style bench is out of context.
I make planes for Western style woodworking where surface finishes and adhesives are used. These are best and most uniformly applied and used when the pores of the wood are open to encourage uniform penetration.
BTW, what makes you think you can tell me how to spend my time? When I see you doing something around here that contributes to paying the bills, you might get some input on what I do and when I do it. Frankly I haven't reread that article that seems to have your panties in a knot since it went on the web site 13 years ago. If you want to discuss it, make an appointment. It's not like I work for some foundation with other revenue streams who set up and equipped a shop for me because they wanted period planes to use on site. There's been no one to pay utilities, wages, health insurance, pensions and all the other overhead while we worked all this out. We didn't have ten or eleven years from when we first started setting up to get our first run of planes out the door. Our planes have to actually work when they leave the shop; we don't get to send out planes without first fitting and bedding irons, fitting wedges and abutment or even without doing the first flattening and sharpening of the iron. We don't have the luxury of shipping kits to the end user, we have to ship finished well functioning tools.
[OP]
Member
What does this have to do with the Japanese video that clearly shows that chip breakers work?????? I HAVE just googled references today that show that double iron planes cost more than single iron planes. What kind of research are you basing your findings upon??? Double iron planes cost about 20 cents more than single irons. It is bizarre to say that single irons cost more. They take more work and materials to produce. Some guy pointed out that APPLEWOOD single iron planes cost more than double iron planes. That was foolish: every one knows that applewood costs a lot more than Beech. He even admitted it was comparing apples to oranges.
Kees showed his results in his video. With all due respect, you are just being stubborn . It's REALLY o.k. to admit you are wrong about something. I have,in this case. It doesn't affect the quality or knowledge that my body of work shows,and I have made as great range of things in several media.
Last edited by george wilson; 01-04-2013 at 12:54 AM.
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The thread that just keeps on giving ...
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To be honest, my appeal that you should change the article on your website was mostly tongue in cheek. You can put on your own website what ever you like. It does make a nice anchorpoint for discussion though.
You were looking for a reference with a blunted capiron? http://www.holzwerken.de/werkzeug/hobel.phtml
It's from 1934, so probably too late for your taste. It's way before Kato/Kawai though.
The reason that we don't see it mentioned in older text is probably because daily practice shows that it seems not to be neccessary to go to such extreme ends. The angle of the standard Stanley chipbreaker is plenty good enough. I have obtused my chipbreakers a little further, but David reports good results at 50 degrees. The Lie Nielsen chipbreaker is too sharp though, and shows no effect without first blunting the edge.
Kato reports in his video good effect with a total breaker angle (bedding + front angle of chipbreaker) of 90 degrees at 0.2mm (8thou) and a good effect with a breaker angle of 120 degrees and a distance of 0.3mm (12 thou). That's exactly the kind of values I work with. No surprise there.
Regarding the chocking in a plane with a tight mouth. Of course you can file the mouth of the plane so you can combine a tight mouth with a tight set chipbreaker. But why would you? Belt and braces. My message, you don't need a tight mouth when you use the chipbreaker. So chocking of the mouth it is not a valid argument against using the chipbreaker.
The burnishing effect is a good one, and I am glad you brought it up. I am absolutely no expert on finishes. That said, i don't see this burnishing effect. When I plane a wood with open pores, like Jatoba, I can clearly see how the vessles are cleanly cut through. Another example, this video, about 1:20 to 1:30, does that look burnished to you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=P3Nq1sbOhMM It looks pretty open to me. But like I said, I'm no expert. This is some kind of soft maple from Russian origin. I like to keep a generous clearance angle of 15 to 20 degrees.
Another point not yet debated much. How fast does the iron wear? With a chipbreaker, without, high bedded iron, or low? I don't know, but I am curious.
BTW, I mean it when I say I admire your craftsmanship Larry. I bought all your video's (and they are very good), so I did help a little bit to pay your taxes.
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Probably nothing new for you, but illustrating to everyone, that the early users knew why the chipbreaker was invented. These excerpts are from Jeff Burks. We had a long discussion on Woodnet last summer about the historical origins of the double iron.
An article in an ecyclopedia from 1824. The bit about double irons is on the third page.
http://www.carpentryarchive.org/file...ensis_1825.pdf
And a patent description from 1791 for some kind of planing machine, even the blind and the lame could use. On page 312 and page 314 (highlighted by Jeff) the use of double ironed planes for cross grained wood is mentioned briefly.
http://www.carpentryarchive.org/file...ham_patent.pdf
Of course, in the original ad from Caruthers from 1767, the reason for the double iron is also to be used on cross grained wood. i have no link at the moment.
Do you have a reference from that time or earlier that the double iron was invented to prevent chatter?
Last edited by Kees Heiden; 01-04-2013 at 5:11 AM.
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Salivet, Manuel du tourneur, Volume 3. Plate nr. IX.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=hhY1...page&q&f=false
There is a picture of a very early chipbreaker with the screwthreads in the planeiron instead of the capiron. The front of the capiron looks very blunt. Definitley steeper then 45 degrees.
Also according to Jeff. I can't find a link to the original text, Holzapffel is a big tome:Charles Holtzapffel said:You should look in this older thread on Woodnet. It's full of interesting historical stuff:
the top iron is not intended to cut, but to present a more nearly perpendicular wall for the ascent of the shavings, the top iron more effectually breaks the shavings, and is thence sometimes called the break iron.
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthr...=&fpart=1&vc=1
Last edited by Kees Heiden; 01-04-2013 at 4:38 PM.
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Quit being a martyr Larry. The folks who send you money for your planes worked just as hard for it as you do yours, and worked through perhaps as much or more adversity to earn it. We all have our stories. Trust me. Otherwise, it's called a business transaction on equal footing. No party is superior to the other. We're all paying our bills. Just like you. It may very well just be me, but you've always seemed to put out a sort of vibe like you're falling (or already have fallen) on your sword so we can have your planes.
It's also a logical fallacy to compare your premium priced planes to a $40 used Stanley ("kit of parts") when for the most part the purchaser knows he may have to twiddle with the Stanley a bit and he's only paying, well, forty bucks. For the price you are asking the buyer has every right to expect them to be ready to go. Ohio Tool used to make them with prison labor. Maybe they were junk. I have one and it seems fine to me - best $25 I've ever spent.
Last edited by Charlie Stanford; 01-04-2013 at 8:07 AM.
[OP]
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True,Charlie. My wife and I have been operating a jewelry business for about 16 or 17 years,with employees. There are all kinds of stuff you have to pay for if you have employees. We small business people are well aware of it,believe me. The business is primarily my wife,though I make the tooling and have made quite a few of the master models,provided technical support,etc.. She works till 10:00 just about every night. She packs up large,heavy loads of tent,flooring,display counters,etc. to go on arduous trips to do shows that cost thousands to get into and live in hotels. Gas,food,everything adds up. Often she just breaks even in these bad economy days. She works 4 times as hard as she did when she was in the museum,and makes about the same pay,but without the insurance. and,since I'm retired,she doesn't have mine any more,and hasn't for several years. She did not want to wait until she was much older to apply for her own as rates are much higher. That is what operating your own small business is all about these days.
And,all this time,she is trying to compete with artists who get everything made in China. We only have USA made castings and local help. Silver is terribly high,and not getting any lower,and customers still want it as cheap as they can get it. Much of the time they haven't the taste to know if it's Chinese or not. Yes,life is rough. It's the path she has chosen,but it hasn't been easy.
As for me,I made hundreds of all types of tools,musical instruments,even an 18th.C. fire engine (30 casting patterns,machine them till midnight,make the upper deck assembly,and assemble the whole engine.That took 1 year of hard,daily work.) All while very chronically tired from lack of REM sleep,14 surgeries,chronic pain every day. Uphill all the way, Just stubburn enough to keep going til I was 67. Mercifully laid off in a 140 person cutback due to the economy. I was lucky I was past retirement age(65 and 8 months). Otherwise I might still be there. Made out on that deal!! Got 1/2 year's pay,kept insurance benefits several months until Dec.,when I could get Medicare. Just plain luck. I'm not allowed to say what happened to younger people with many years invested.
P.S.: At least the Chinese haven't gotten into the business of making early Western wooden planes. You have that going for you. Myself,I have found plenty of excellent condition wooden planes that I have used for many years. I think some were never used. Or,I make them myself,though I did break down and pay the tariff for a Norris years ago,just for fun.
Isn't it enough that you make an impeccable product? Did you ever start forging your own irons? I remember when they were precision ground flat stock(or looked like it in the pictures). I smithed out special irons when I needed to. My 6" wide crown molding planes and cooper's jointers,and special molding planes had my hand forged irons.
Last edited by george wilson; 01-04-2013 at 8:45 AM.
Member
As I mentioned earlier in this thread I just bought a Lie Nielsen because the Wood Rivers I was looking at had chip breakers that didn't even reach the edge of the blade. I don't have a dog in this fight, I just came across this wrangle, but I have to agree with Kees. Before coming across this new part of the thread it was obvious to me that the low angle chip breaker on my new and first-ever LN while it at least reached the edge did nothing much for breaking chips. In fact, it was so sharp and thin at the edge and the steel so soft that it curled and bent during use. With some trepidation, since we have all been taught to view LNs as perfect in some mystical way, I set about altering the cap iron. Recalling that all the old Stanley style caps had far higher angles, I dressed up the final part of the edge on to a much blunter angle. This took about five minutes. It now works better. Kees your references certainly seem to confirm that this was at one time considered the correct approach. It seemed commonsensical at the time I did it given that cap would not even stand up to use. Anyway, I feel more confident now after seeing Kees's references that I didn't do something foolish in altering a holy cow Lie-Nielsen
Last edited by michael case; 01-04-2013 at 8:58 AM.
[OP]
Member
Maybe LN will pick up on this thread and modify their planes so the chip breakers work properly,and do reach far enough down the blade to be properly seated very near the cutting edge.(I think someone said they had trouble with that).
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My talent pool is much shallower than yours and I say that admiringly, not snippily. My wife makes jewelry too - I can say that. She's found a pretty decent market selling through Etsy - their fees are ridiculously low. Perhaps food for thought.
Member
Being a civil servant i am blisfully ignorant about all these troubles...
I work in a hospital, taking care of medical equipment. Especially heartfailure patients is my specialism.
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