A chip breaker reminder

[Jason Coen]

Nice tools inspire me to pick them up and do something with them. That's the human factor,which often goes beyond other considerations. It's why some(not me),have Rolex watches rather than Seikos or Timex. If I ever lose the romance of making things,or of enjoying nice tools,better just lower me into the ground.

And all of the people said....Amen.

[Phillip Dejardin]

Summary to round out the thread since it's wound on a long time, and gotten into all kinds of stuff other than chipbreakers (it seems to be drawing heat like a heel wrestler, too):
1) the knowledge must've existed at least since the first double iron planes were made in quantity. That's over 200 years ago.
2) Warren Mickley has beaten the drum about it for years (my favorite, and what were the most irritating comments to me when I was on the other side of it, are the comments where Warren flatly states that if you have trouble with a double iron plane, you don't know how to use it, no matter how experienced you are with other things or how much you think you know about it. I only didn't paste them here because they're property of another site). Warren has been using common double iron planes since before kato and kawai videos were made. Warren would've been beating the drum without Kato and Kawai's information. I have no idea who taught him to use a double iron plane.
3) Several of us were talking about using a double iron plane on the forums and in PMs, starting march '12, before there was any video and before we knew about it. We didn't pick up on it because of the video, but the video did offer excellent ammunition to show that it works.
4) Because of the talk on the forums, Bill contacted us and said "I have some information to show you, we have to get it out there". Bill wanted the focus to be influencing the ROS type users who wouldn't use a plane unless it worked every time (I don't think that's worked out). I wanted just to figure out what warren knew that I didn't, and second, to get the common pitch planes to perform like they must've been able to (else we would've seen more higher pitch plane versions, which almost disappeared completely once the double iron plane was popular).
5) The unearthing of the video was brought by forum members - bill and steve (not me), it should be credited that this change in general came about as a result of forum discussions and the work of curious forum members and that without forum discussion fostering it, there'd be no bloggers talking about it. In less than a year, the discussion has gone from everyone accepting that a tight mouth and steep iron was the only way to mitigate tearout to, hopefully, everyone accepting that you can do the same thing with an inexpensive common pitch plane.
6) there are better places to get advice about it than bloggers (Kees' blog notwithstanding), and anyone who tells you it's tedious...as warren pointed out half a decade ago...doesn't know what they think they know.

This came about mostly because I was talking to george offline and I mentioned that I saw a lot of static crediting the origin of all of this to the wrong place. As in it was being attributed to people who had nothing to do with it, those people didn't attribute it to themselves. I don't think anyone saw my forum post and claimed credit or accepted it, I'm not that vain. I think they probably saw the video that was unearthed by Bill and Steve's labor. And without Warren, there would've probably been no drive to find information. Mark Hennebury would've worked in obscurity, too, as far as the forums go (and mark fully understood the use of the second iron because supersurfacers use them). Without Bill Tindall and Steve Elliot, the work Kato and Kawai did would not have been shown to us. Without warren's talk about double irons all the time, and without warren torching expensive planes at WIA with a cheap plane, I wouldn't have had any interest in following up, either.

I wouldn't have said anything about it, but George was nice enough to. It did bother me that the discussion was turning toward crediting people discovering something that was actually a collective forum effort, and the advice coming from elsewhere wasn't as good as the advice that we've already put out there.

If anyone is bothered that we think knowing where things came from is important, that's OK. If anyone is bothered that George thinks we should get information that's as accurate as possible, that's OK. If anyone is bothered that I think the same thing as george thinks, that's OK, too. I'd hope what comes of it is that we collectively realize that the forums (any of them that get involved in rigorous discussion, some generally don't) where rigorous discussion occurs are likely to have the greatest breadth, depth and accuracy of information...once you know where to go on them to get it.

(perhaps we can close it out at that and not have any more back and forth not related to cap irons.....well, don't confuse me with one of those type of members who likes to tell anyone else what they can do. maybe we can dig up another whopper next year as a group. This year it was cap irons, it still excites me to use $14 of plane and replacement iron and get the same results I've gotten with planes costing 40 times that much. What warren said, we finally have the tools to "get it" more easily.)

Thank you so much, David, for taking it upon yourself to round out this thread for us all, and to summarily declare its conclusion. It's an interesting version of events for sure, especially given what's missing in light of your penchant for accuracy, but that's OK.

[george wilson]

Phillip,please PM me about what's missing in David's version of events. I am curious.

[John Coloccia]

My general suggestion to people is to keep a beginner's mind and forget about whether someone belongs to the woodworking cognoscenti or not. Try for yourself and see if it works. Yeah, when someone like George says something I listen up because he has quite a proven track record of techniques that obviously work, but I still try it for myself before taking it as gospel.

Chris Schwarz needs to grow thicker skin. I wonder if Tommy deleted his bookmarks to Chris' blog because Chris dared post a video response? I generally like Chris' writings and I find them enjoyable, but I wish he'd grow up a bit. He's positioned himself as an expert, and time and time again he's also positioned himself as an iconoclast. Well, he's the icon now and you have to expect criticism, right or wrong. No big deal. He should be careful just simply dismissing forums like this because his feelings are a little hurt. It seems awfully foolish to close your mind to a major resource like this. It also seems foolish to put people in a position where they feel they have to choose between you and a forum because you've setup a little mini-feud. This is not a difficult choice for me.

[george wilson]

I need to grow a thicker skin.too,John. Maybe my work makes some gurus nervous,so I get excluded. That's not self aggrandizement ,I think it just might be fact. It has happened before in different places.

You are wise to try things for yourself. I sent a violin off with a prospective customer. I had MADE the varnish,and rubbed it carefully everywhere,and I mean everywhere. This customer took it to an "80 year old expert". The "Expert" thought the varnish was polyurethane,sprayed on. Solely based on the age of this "expert",the customer leaned towards his conclusion. That's what I got for doing extra careful work!! I should have left brush marks,I suppose!! I made him send the violin right back,and sold it to someone who had the ears to appreciate it. I showed them my varnish making supplies,too. The other customer was left playing a violin made by an apprentice of mine,which was where he belonged. Man!!! Did I hate some things about the musical instrument making business!!!!

My point is,even the most aged,expert seeming person can be completely full of it!! But,words are cheap.

[John A. Callaway]

David, thanks for the summary.
John, I absolutely agree with you.
George, you have worked your life in this stuff, and you have proven your knowledge and ability with every picture and discussion of your work. As much as I appreciate schwarz trying to publish books ( of which i have every one he has written or published, and there are several more in the works I do intend to buy, particularly the Studley tool chest book ) about the history of the work and it's tools, he seems to avoid some of the " well knowns " of the Internet community like yourself. That is unfortunate I think. His writing style is very enjoyable to read, and both of you seem to share a some what similar sense of humor and and a very non conformist approach to some of the traditional parts of the craft. The two of you could probably produce some great books. And I agree with you, to some of those in the limelight, the caliber of your work and your knowldedge of their work ( what it takes to produce it correctly ) might be a little frightening, or at least off putting, which from a publishing stand point ( be it magazines or books or videos ) I would think they would spend a fair amount of time trying to pull information out of you, not ignoring you or becoming nervous because you are trying to insure accuracy of print.

[David Weaver]

Someone sent me a PM and told me that Graham Blackburn has been teaching a class about using double irons at WIA for a while longer than this came up on the internet. Maybe graham is the second woodworker Raney Nelson was referring to when he told us he's only ever met two people who claimed to use the cap iron to control tearout (one of them was Warren). Why didn't that advice ever make it out to the forums?

Grahams instruction material that I've seen is old school, just bang it out pragmatism (as in, it's good). Would it have had a better chance of getting out here before we bothered ourselves with it if someone else talked about it? If there's any type of the folks out there who would've instructed it's use, I'm not surprised that it would come from GB. I'm disappointed that there apparently was enough interest in it for a large enough group of people for it to have become regular advice, though. Why wouldn't people repeat it, did they not want to get bogged down in trying to communicate how someone would use it?

[Phillip Dejardin]

Phillip,please PM me about what's missing in David's version of events. I am curious.

Since you've asked, George, I'll highlight just a few examples of this thread's history that may have been missed. A fuller sense of this thread entails reading the entire thing in context, which is always a good idea. In fact, it's also a good idea even when reading blogs, woodworking magazine articles, watching PBS woodworking shows, etc. Nevertheless, as you, David and others have pointed out, it's importatnt to give folks proper credit for their contributions.

#5 (George Wilson) - I know there are OTHER BLOGGERS who take older information and try to make it their own. Seems if you don't have a blog,or a good way to self promote yourself,a guy could get taken advantage of!!

#6 (David Weaver) - I don't make any money off of anything, so nobody can really take advantage of me, but I sure wish most folks would take advantage of the real experts on the forums.

#41 (Charlie Stanford) - I doubt the saws themselves appreciate the Close Encounters of the Schwarz Kind with the floor, either.

#55 (George Wilson) - Sorry,neither David or I live in "the Schwarz World". I've been at this when he was kicking the slats out of his crib(actually long before that: My daughter is 45).

#56 (David Weaver) - I haven't been at it that long, but there is a drastic difference in the shows when someone like Peter Ross or Brian Boggs is on vs. Schwarz. Someone has to tell beginners what they're doing, I guess, and our discussions on here might be too esoteric in general. But I want to watch the guys with skill, the ones who inspire me to be able to work with the same accuracy and efficiency.

#63 (David Weaver) - Chris does do a good job publishing. I like a lot of his publishing efforts as long as they are books written by someone else. And I don't mean that as a slight, I think it's perfectly fair to say I'd like a book written by an expert and edited/published by someone who is an expert at the latter.

#84 (David Weaver) - Actually, if it makes him a little more cautious and points him more toward publishing and finding experts to provide the information, that wouldn't be negative at all. It doesn't seem to have had that effect, though.

[Chris Griggs]

And lets not forget!!!!!! How dare you either of you comment on the wonderful man that was Bob Ross!!!!

I can't tell the difference. And what's with Monet's hair?

Happy little tribes. Happy little blogs. Happy little chipbreakers. And a titanium white plane iron for all.

[David Weaver]

Don't forget that the end of the world is coming, too!! It's only a couple of days.

[Wilbur Pan]

Grahams instruction material that I've seen is old school, just bang it out pragmatism (as in, it's good). Would it have had a better chance of getting out here before we bothered ourselves with it if someone else talked about it? If there's any type of the folks out there who would've instructed it's use, I'm not surprised that it would come from GB. I'm disappointed that there apparently was enough interest in it for a large enough group of people for it to have become regular advice, though. Why wouldn't people repeat it, did they not want to get bogged down in trying to communicate how someone would use it?

I think it's important to keep in mind that although the information on how to best use double irons has been around for probably as long as there have been double irons, there's a big difference between having possession of that knowledge, and being able to effectively transmit that knowledge. The two have very different skill sets.

I think the Kato-Kawai film is a good example of that. This video has been available before on the internet, if you knew where to look, but it didn't gain very much traction. I think one key thing that made it a buzz topic this summer was that an English translation for the audio, which was in Japanese, was made available, thanks to Mia Iwasaki. Having the translation for the audio sure helped me see this video in a way that I hadn't before, and I'm sure that also catalyzed a lot of the ensuing discussion.

[Phillip Dejardin]

Don't forget that the end of the world is coming, too!! It's only a couple of days.

This week's forcast

weather.jpg

[David Cockey]

Some of the previously available sources of information:

Garrett Hack, The Handplane Book, Taunton Press, 1999, pages 71, 72, 162

"Ideally, the cap iron should be as far from the cutting edge as the thickness of the shavings you expect to make." p 71

"Adjust the cap iron just back from the cutting edge for a smoothing plane and fine shavings" p 72

"There are two final things to check while tuning a smoothing plane: First, that the cap iron lies flat ast the iron close to the cutting edge, ...... Hone the underside of the cap iron .... and set it very close to the cutting edge" p 162


Tage Frid, Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, Volume 1, Taunton Press, 1979

"The function of the chipbreaker is to prevent the blade from tearing up the surface of the wood. If the chipbreaker is set too far away from the cutting edge of the blade, you might as well use the plane without the chipbreaker. For normal use the chipbreaker should sit back around 1/32 in. [0.8 mm] For rough work move it back slightly; for fine work, such as planing curly woods, move it closer to the edge." page 33 emphasis added

[David Weaver]

I think it's important to keep in mind that although the information on how to best use double irons has been around for probably as long as there have been double irons, there's a big difference between having possession of that knowledge, and being able to effectively transmit that knowledge. The two have very different skill sets.

I think the Kato-Kawai film is a good example of that. This video has been available before on the internet, if you knew where to look, but it didn't gain very much traction. I think one key thing that made it a buzz topic this summer was that an English translation for the audio, which was in Japanese, was made available, thanks to Mia Iwasaki. Having the translation for the audio sure helped me see this video in a way that I hadn't before, and I'm sure that also catalyzed a lot of the ensuing discussion.

The trouble with the K&K video, I believe, was that it was linked from a university yamagata website in japanese, so there was no way that any of us would've found it. Despite being viewable to the public, we never would've seen it because google wouldn't pick it up if you search in english. Someone who spoke japanese would've needed to chance their way into it and told us about it and provided a link. I'm not sure what tipped off Bill and Steve to dig it up, do you remember? Maybe someone got a hold of some literature with pictures first, or maybe it had to do with Steve's search on the edge wear information that came along with it. Bill probably told me, but I can't remember.

[Jason Coen]

Don't forget that the end of the world is coming, too!! It's only a couple of days.

This could be worse than Y2K.