A chip breaker reminder

[george wilson]

Sorry,I guess I imagined those things? I must be getting senile!!

I think if you are going to put yourself forth as an instructor,instruct the correct way. Why is that wrong? I'm not letting anyone jam my saws into the floor,or possibly kink my backsaws from jamming them. Is there something wrong with proper instruction?????

There are some here who seem to agree with me. I spent years as a teacher,both in schools and in Williamsburg,doing demonstrations. I felt a duty and an obligation to do things correctly. Is that out the window too?

[David Weaver]

I'm not saying this to point to george or say "anything goes", but I do think it's good for things like that to be pointed out by someone like george from time to time. IF we could get more specific information out of Charlie from time to time, that might be helpful, too. Presume Charlie's point of view is fairly well calibrated because he's getting paid to do at least some of the work he does. We know george got/gets paid for his.

As amateurs, if george says we should strive to not bind our saws, then we should. I couldn't have told you a peep about clinching nails, but now we know more. Sometimes there's something to be learned from criticism.

A while ago (here's one for you Adam) when I first started handsawing, I was cutting fairly far away from the line and planing to it. Adam Cherubini said something along the lines of "you have to get to the point that you can saw on the line where it's appropriate to do that and not shoot every end". That was, to me, a helpful comment. It's not hard to ride the line on work, it's not hard to not bind saws, it's probably not hard to clinch nails in a professional looking way, but you have to know to do it.

Most of the time we don't, we're too busy patting each other on the back about our mediocre work. The first saw I made, george was the only person who offered advice for me to improve. It forced me to change the way I look at execution, I don't need to make anything, I could buy it all and dump woodworking entirely. Everyone has different priorities, some people like to make a lot and make it fast, some people like to make something exactly like period with tool marks to match. I like to make fewer things and try to make them something that I will not look back on and say "I did an amateurish job with that". My second and third saws were a lot better for george's commentary. Hopefully my fourth one will be, too. Indirectly, all of us who put together kits at the same time benefited from it, even though it would've been easy to call criticism and suggestion out of bounds.

Threads like this make us think. Some of us will conclude that the way Chris does stuff is fine, some of us will conclude that we'd like to know enough to know why george has a different opinion. At least we're thinking about it, though.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm not saying this to point to george or say "anything goes", but I do think it's good for things like that to be pointed out by someone like george from time to time. IF we could get more specific information out of Charlie from time to time, that might be helpful, too. Presume Charlie's point of view is fairly well calibrated because he's getting paid to do at least some of the work he does. We know george got/gets paid for his.

As amateurs, if george says we should strive to not bind our saws, then we should. I couldn't have told you a peep about clinching nails, but now we know more. Sometimes there's something to be learned from criticism.

A while ago (here's one for you Adam) when I first started handsawing, I was cutting fairly far away from the line and planing to it. Adam Cherubini said something along the lines of "you have to get to the point that you can saw on the line where it's appropriate to do that and not shoot every end". That was, to me, a helpful comment. It's not hard to ride the line on work, it's not hard to not bind saws, it's probably not hard to clinch nails in a professional looking way, but you have to know to do it.

Most of the time we don't, we're too busy patting each other on the back about our mediocre work. The first saw I made, george was the only person who offered advice for me to improve. It forced me to change the way I look at execution, I don't need to make anything, I could buy it all and dump woodworking entirely. Everyone has different priorities, some people like to make a lot and make it fast, some people like to make something exactly like period with tool marks to match. I like to make fewer things and try to make them something that I will not look back on and say "I did an amateurish job with that". My second and third saws were a lot better for george's commentary. Hopefully my fourth one will be, too. Indirectly, all of us who put together kits at the same time benefited from it, even though it would've been easy to call criticism and suggestion out of bounds.

Threads like this make us think. Some of us will conclude that the way Chris does stuff is fine, some of us will conclude that we'd like to know enough to know why george has a different opinion. At least we're thinking about it, though.

Very well said Dave. To your last point. I actually conclude both. I think CS does what he does and I think its good and fine, but I'd also like to know enough to know why George might have a different opinion. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I always appreciate the fact that George is willing to offer criticism when I post work. Its one of the main reasons I keep posting it (that and I like getting a pat on the back from everyone else for my mediocre efforts as well). I probably just sound like a big wishy washy nincompoop, maybe I am. What can I say... I've learned a lot from Chris Schwarz, I've learned an equal amount from David Weaver, and I've learned things from George that no one else I ever meet would have likely have the eye or experience to teach me. I'm grateful for all of it.

[george wilson]

Maybe I get too carried away,I don't know. What I do think is true is there are right ways to use tools and wrong ways. It should not be difficult to see that whamming a saw into the floor,or binding it is none of the above. Really,is it correct? Too complicated?

I may have trodden on some toes here. I know there certainly is a degree of "hero worship"(or whatever it might be called) in play here. All I ask is simply this: If you are going to set yourself up as a guru,you'd best BE that guru. I know I can be harsh,and do not always come across in the best way( I know this because my wife tells me so every day!) But,I try to do my work and use my tools properly,at least. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. All the rest is talk. I'm sure we ingest 98% misleading advertising,hype,and nonsense every day. Try to hang onto that 2% of truth.

[Phillip Dejardin]

I'm actually a little surprised that he got pissed enough about a bunch of forum discussions to make a point of posting a blog article saying that he was deleting them from his browser.

I'm actually surprised that he frequents woodworking forums at all given the unfortunate example of this thread. Perhaps the woodworking "community" thinks of people like Chris, Roy, Norm, Tommy, et al, like other public celebrities and, therefore, open to the same kind of unrestrained comment on their person. Yes, they are in the public eye in a way that nearly all forum participants are not, and for some people that apparently gives them additional license to say things they normally wouldn't dare in other public venues.

It is interesting, at least in this context, how topics (presumably) on technique tend to be overshadowed by personal characteristics like background, profession, personality, demeanor. Those on the hunt are always keen to display their self-described expertise comparatively as if it's the definitive measure on virtually everything. It's not, not even close. You know when a discussion starts going south as soon as the obligatory "I (Bill, Joe, Fred, Barney, Matilda) have been doing such and such for the past fill-in-the-blank number of years and..." gets thrown into the mix. It's the typical first salvo when denigrating someone else's knowledge and skill.

So speaking as a relative newcomer to the craft (Yes, I'm invoking the authority of inexperience), it matters very little to me how much expertise forum member X so publically claims to have, or is claimed to have. Such displays of authority by themselves are rarely helpful, but demonstrated expertise always is. Stick to the latter and the former will quietly follow on its own without the need for reminder or mention.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm not saying this to point to george or say "anything goes", but I do think it's good for things like that to be pointed out by someone like george from time to time. IF we could get more specific information out of Charlie from time to time, that might be helpful, too. Presume Charlie's point of view is fairly well calibrated because he's getting paid to do at least some of the work he does. We know george got/gets paid for his.

As amateurs, if george says we should strive to not bind our saws, then we should. I couldn't have told you a peep about clinching nails, but now we know more. Sometimes there's something to be learned from criticism.

A while ago (here's one for you Adam) when I first started handsawing, I was cutting fairly far away from the line and planing to it. Adam Cherubini said something along the lines of "you have to get to the point that you can saw on the line where it's appropriate to do that and not shoot every end". That was, to me, a helpful comment. It's not hard to ride the line on work, it's not hard to not bind saws, it's probably not hard to clinch nails in a professional looking way, but you have to know to do it.

Most of the time we don't, we're too busy patting each other on the back about our mediocre work. The first saw I made, george was the only person who offered advice for me to improve. It forced me to change the way I look at execution, I don't need to make anything, I could buy it all and dump woodworking entirely. Everyone has different priorities, some people like to make a lot and make it fast, some people like to make something exactly like period with tool marks to match. I like to make fewer things and try to make them something that I will not look back on and say "I did an amateurish job with that". My second and third saws were a lot better for george's commentary. Hopefully my fourth one will be, too. Indirectly, all of us who put together kits at the same time benefited from it, even though it would've been easy to call criticism and suggestion out of bounds.

Threads like this make us think. Some of us will conclude that the way Chris does stuff is fine, some of us will conclude that we'd like to know enough to know why george has a different opinion. At least we're thinking about it, though.

A whole lot of what I see described on these boards as hand methods of work are best case scenarios whose likelihood are so remote as to not be worth considering - mostly threads about hand prepping stock, sharpening, and matters of that ilk. A lot of this stuff, though not all, lacks a 'ring of truth' or any proportionality at all to time invested. Nothing is impossible with an unlimited time horizon and the luxury of rejecting every "bad" board that comes up in the pile (wouldn't THAT be nice?, he asks rhetorically). Anybody can ultimately twink, fiddle, and to some extent buy there way to 'perfection.' But, again, it is perfection often without any proportionality to the contortions necessary to achieve it. It is not a learning curve. It seems more like something weird, truncated, and contrived to me.

Were I to run across a bit of paying work in which the client had no other point of reference beyond department store fare, I'd likely fire up every machine I could lay my hands on in order to produce the work (and probably thoroughly enjoy it!). And then call it a day. Cash M'lady's check and be done with it. For what it's worth and all of that... Now, where did I put my Leigh jig?

[David Weaver]

Such displays of authority by themselves are rarely helpful, but demonstrated expertise always is....

If you don't know the posters involved in a discussion, they are helpful. If you are new to a craft or new to a discussion and unfamiliar with the subject, you otherwise wouldn't have the ability to tell who is more likely to be right.

What we get as information now vs. what was in print 30 years ago is *hugely* different. The advertisers are different, the targets are different, and what used to be entirely experts has dropped a few notches because that is, I guess what the market is.

Maybe 30 years ago, there were a lot of small makers and small cabinet shops that could drive subscription and advertising desires, but at least where I am, all of the small cabinet shops have disappeared. Hand tooling, which used to be a tiny group of skilled users is now a fairly large group of people who probably have low single digits of years of experience on average.

I can't think of anyone who is not a moderator of this forum who has contributed more to this forum than George (including providing/producing things for members that otherwise could not be found). But there is always a group of people external who would like to register for the forum and dictate content. The assumption that just presenting the information is the best way to let the good content float to the top hasn't proven out in the forums. And in a lot of cases, those who have offered the best content have moved on. It's a shame when that happens, and I'd hate to see the quality of this content devolve back to what it has on other forums.

Several years ago, Raney Nelson expressed frustration at another forum that it never went anywhere. That the content never improved and that the same topics roll over and over and over. All that led to was the largest volume of information being the generally accepted opinion, and how much do you see Raney posting about on the forums these days? It sure isn't that he couldn't offer a whole lot of valuable advice. There is probably only one reason that's not the case here, and that is precisely because someone who can do the best work resides here to calibrate our opinions.

[Mel Fulks]

The obvious desire to help should keep anyone from thinking "harsh".I joked about the encouragement given on band sawing that box because it impressed me as having all the earnestness of someone in a flight control tower telling someone how to land the plane because the pilot has just keeled over.

[David Weaver]

Were I to run across a bit of paying work in which the client had no other point of reference beyond department store fare, I'd likely fire up every machine I could lay my hands on in order to produce the work (and probably thoroughly enjoy it!). And then call it a day. Cash ...

So would I, the client likely wouldn't care, and timing and money combined together is a different ballgame.

[Phillip Dejardin]

If you don't know the posters involved in a discussion, they are helpful. If you are new to a craft or new to a discussion and unfamiliar with the subject, you otherwise wouldn't have the ability to tell who is more likely to be right.

What we get as information now vs. what was in print 30 years ago is *hugely* different. The advertisers are different, the targets are different, and what used to be entirely experts has dropped a few notches because that is, I guess what the market is.

Maybe 30 years ago, there were a lot of small makers and small cabinet shops that could drive subscription and advertising desires, but at least where I am, all of the small cabinet shops have disappeared. Hand tooling, which used to be a tiny group of skilled users is now a fairly large group of people who probably have low single digits of years of experience on average.

I can't think of anyone who is not a moderator of this forum who has contributed more to this forum than George (including providing/producing things for members that otherwise could not be found). But there is always a group of people external who would like to register for the forum and dictate content. The assumption that just presenting the information is the best way to let the good content float to the top hasn't proven out in the forums. And in a lot of cases, those who have offered the best content have moved on. It's a shame when that happens, and I'd hate to see the quality of this content devolve back to what it has on other forums.

Several years ago, Raney Nelson expressed frustration at another forum that it never went anywhere. That the content never improved and that the same topics roll over and over and over. All that led to was the largest volume of information being the generally accepted opinion, and how much do you see Raney posting about on the forums these days? It sure isn't that he couldn't offer a whole lot of valuable advice. There is probably only one reason that's not the case here, and that is precisely because someone who can do the best work resides here to calibrate our opinions.

And of course, David, the reasons and intent behind such public, self-described displays of expertise are for the benefit of newcomers to the craft like myself, right? Their purpose is singular in that regard and for the good of the uninitiated. It's a public service if you will. I know the argument, I see it put out there all the time, and I even agree with it on occasion – although less and less as time goes on. Nevertheless, the contexts in which the vast majority of these displays of expertise are leveled have absolutely nothing to do with helping out anyone, most certainly not the newcomer.

The issue here isn't expertise. The issue here is the rhetorical use of whatever expertise may or may not be present as a means of shooting down others. I find that shameful. Again, to repeat, "Such displays of authority by themselves are rarely helpful, but demonstrated expertise always is. Stick to the latter and the former will quietly follow on its own without the need for reminder or mention."

[george wilson]

Not sure what you are saying,Charlie,about being able to take all the time in the World to get something right. When we were making the harpsichord and violin movie,we were very,very rushed to get takes in between the museum bus going by,aircraft flying overhead,and trying to get these complex projects done during the quietest Winter months. The only re takes were done when a bit of trash got into the "gate" of the camera.This would be a lot easier today,without relying upon film.

I did the sawing out of the inlay on the name board of the harpsichord(spinet) in 3 hours flat,with the camera crew laying about waiting. Dovetails seen being cut on the spinet case were done in real time,with the quick,accurate saw cuts made just as you'll see them in the film. The chiseling was done the same way,and on the steep angle of the case.

Here are a few bad photos of correctly and incorrectly clinched nails. The correct ones are my tool chest,with the hand forged butterfly hinge. The bad clenching is on an original 18th.C. blanket chest in my bedroom. The guy was drunk,in a hurry,or just plain bad!!

The neatly clenched nails had their tips bent down on the ends to form staples. Each nail took about 60 seconds or less to clench. They aren't dead nuts square,but they were meant to look competently hand made and the chest was seen for many years standing open to see in the musical instrument shop.

I ask the simple question: Which nails would you rather do on your project?

By the way,I MADE these nails(not the hinge). The nails were made from horseshoe nails with their trapezoidal heads hammered into rose heads in a simple nail header I also made. A domed disc of hardened steel welded to a longer handle,with a hole just large enough to accept the shank of the nail. The horse shoe nail trick gives nice clenching nails,because their shanks are wide and somewhat thin. Plenty of metal in the heads to hammer into rose head nails. A good trick to know if you need handmade nails. I don't like those heavy shanked rose head nails you can buy. Their heads are all the same, struck in a die,and their shanks are very thick and hurt soft wood too much when you clench them.

Phillip,what you don't know is how some of these bloggers omit others not in their clique. Believe me,there has been shooting down of me behind the scenes,but I am not allowed to discuss it here. Just like in politics and everything else in the World,alliances are formed,others are excluded . That's just the way it always works. I am not a bad person. I'm just not a bravo Sierra merchant.

[David Weaver]

And of course, David, the reasons and intent behind such public, self-described displays of expertise are for the benefit of newcomers to the craft like myself, right?

They are for the benefit of anyone who wants to know what an accomplished woodworker, or professional would do. Not everything is to the benefit of someone who wants woodworking boards to be more like social club. Like I said, if everything has to be pleasant buddy buddy, usually the answer of the clique rises to the top, and the standard set is low. I personally choose the professional who tells it like he/she sees it, even if sometimes it slaps me in the head. If you registered here today and don't have context of the discussions, then you mght want to look at the library of work of some of the more experienced members. To my knowledge, there hs been very little of such "displays of authority" by themselves, they have generally been backed up by a library of work, and fortunately on this forum, the work that's posted persists for a very long time.

I am glas that this forum exists in the form it does, and with some exceptions, has generally seen valuable information for what it is rather than settling into a group consensus for manner minding. Such a thing just serves to drive off true experts who have earned their right to express bold opinions.

If you are pointing toward people in this post, then you should be around here for a while longer to see who provides genuine focused help to beginners.

[Phillip Dejardin]

Phillip,what you don't know is how some of these bloggers omit others not in their clique. Believe me,there has been shooting down of me behind the scenes,but I am not allowed to discuss it here. Just like in politics and everything else in the World,alliances are formed,others are excluded . That's just the way it always works. I am not a bad person. I'm just not a bravo Sierra merchant.

George, I actually do know how the blogger/forum/celebrity tribalism in woodworking works. I know it very well, in fact, which is why it bothers me so much when I see it continue over and over again. I was reluctant to comment here because these things almost never produce useful outcomes. But I did, nevertheless, because I'm seeing this sort of factionalism getting worse.

I ended up here because of Chris's blog post. I'm familiar with SMC and have been an occassional lurker for years. There's nothing unique about SMC or other forums or other blogs - including Chris's - in feeding this ridiculous factionalism among woodworkers. I'm not a "can't we all just get along" type of guy, but I really think this trend is diminishing the craft and the willingness of talented individuals to put themselves out there and provide useful content. My concerns are purely selfish, quite frankly.

And I most certainly don't think of you as a bad person. How could I? I don't even know you.

[Phillip Dejardin]

They are for the benefit of anyone who wants to know what an accomplished woodworker, or professional would do. Not everything is to the benefit of someone who wants woodworking boards to be more like social club. Like I said, if everything has to be pleasant buddy buddy, usually the answer of the clique rises to the top, and the standard set is low. I personally choose the professional who tells it like he/she sees it, even if sometimes it slaps me in the head. If you registered here today and don't have context of the discussions, then you mght want to look at the library of work of some of the more experienced members. To my knowledge, there hs been very little of such "displays of authority" by themselves, they have generally been backed up by a library of work, and fortunately on this forum, the work that's posted persists for a very long time.

I am glas that this forum exists in the form it does, and with some exceptions, has generally seen valuable information for what it is rather than settling into a group consensus for manner minding. Such a thing just serves to drive off true experts who have earned their right to express bold opinions.

If you are pointing toward people in this post, then you should be around here for a while longer to see who provides genuine focused help to beginners.

David, see my reply to George. And for the record, nowhere in my posts have I named anyone or blamed anyone individually. We're all culpable in this tribalistic stupidity. I just want it to stop.

Also, I probably should have waited before unleashing my screed. The new guy on the block thing is pretty standard and I violated that custom - my apologies.

[george wilson]

I think I am fighting a losing battle,getting myself between learning wood(or metal) workers and their heroes. The truth is too hard to swallow for those who are perhaps not well informed about the work. I don't mean you,because I don't know you either.

From my perspective,it's just not rocket science to see these things I've spoken of. It gets down to the charm factor of these types of "performers". Roy certainly has plenty of that. I'm sure they will continue to have their faithful followers.

I just wish I could tell about the grossly unfair situation I was put through in the museum over a crew that was only working 3 hours a day when I had a big job assigned to me to get done,but I guess I cannot. This is why I'm not in the "clique",but I've never been a clique person anyway. I don't need money,and don't need to start building a new career as a woodworking guru blogger at nearly 72. I'm quite comfortable to do what pleases me,and when,at this juncture of my retirement.