A chip breaker reminder

[Jason Coen]

What does this all matter, anyway? The world is ending in 4 days!

[David Weaver]

What does this all matter, anyway? The world is ending in 4 days!

Carp...I forgot about that. We're toast!!!

[David Weaver]

David, see my reply to George. And for the record, nowhere in my posts have I named anyone or blamed anyone individually. We're all culpable in this tribalistic stupidity. I just want it to stop.

Also, I probably should have waited before unleashing my screed. The new guy on the block thing is pretty standard and I violated that custom - my apologies.

It's not so much about tribes, it's about finding the most informed answer. I know from the route you got here, that seems like it's not the case, but really it is. If you wanted to make varnish, there are people who could tell you how to do it off the top of your head. If you wanted to make a plane iron or carve a lamb's tongue in a saw handle, same thing. If you wanted to dye something so that it was colorfast, truly colorfast, there are people you would ask. They are not the ones writing the books and blogs most of the time.

There are a lot of people like that. Unfortunatley, few of them visit the forums, and fewer maybe even have blogs. There is an order of accomplishment that is above and beyond trabalism here, and the detriment of the craft isn't due to manners, it's due to a flow of watered down information. It seems to be that the majority wants a watered down form of the craft, that much is clear.

Some of us don't want it, though. I personally want to get my information from the folks who can tell you how to make the varnish, who can tell me how to dye something permanently, and who can tell me what I should be doing when I say something like "I want to block up this plane and pein the pins and tails, and I don't want it to have stray hammer marks on it, what should I do?"

[Phillip Dejardin]

George, it sounds like you've been bitten more than once by this tribalism, and I'm with you. Again, I'm speaking against this sort of thing wherever it crops up. I've participated in this "clique" behavior that George is referring to and been a victim of it as well. I've probably caused more harm than good here.

[David Weaver]

Nahh. Stick around for a while, though, or remember to come back if you have a rotten, difficult or esoteric question.

[Zach Dillinger]

Some of us don't want it, though. I personally want to get my information from the folks who can tell you how to make the varnish, who can tell me how to dye something permanently, and who can tell me what I should be doing when I say something like "I want to block up this plane and pein the pins and tails, and I don't want it to have stray hammer marks on it, what should I do?"

Indeed. The internet could be such a wonderful resource (it can be now, but the reverberation chamber effect is too strong) if only someone could reach out to the true masters of their craft, not just the true masters of reaching out...

[george wilson]

The lesson I learned back then was that you don't mess with the guy who's getting free T.V. advertising for you!!! There were no consequences from it,as I was too valuable myself,but the thing left as bad taste in my mouth,for sure.

Some guys get to be nice guys on T.V.,and very different when not in front of the camera. I could never devote my life to having a show. Just not in me. When you have 1,it totally dominates your life and takes all your time. The worst thing for me would be,it would take all the time I would have had making nicer and nicer things,and improving my skills and knowledge. I'll take the route I chose because it is the only route I am suited for. I like making things,not being a folk hero.

[Phillip Dejardin]

It's not so much about tribes, it's about finding the most informed answer. I know from the route you got here, that seems like it's not the case, but really it is. If you wanted to make varnish, there are people who could tell you how to do it off the top of your head. If you wanted to make a plane iron or carve a lamb's tongue in a saw handle, same thing. If you wanted to dye something so that it was colorfast, truly colorfast, there are people you would ask. They are not the ones writing the books and blogs most of the time.

There are a lot of people like that. Unfortunatley, few of them visit the forums, and fewer maybe even have blogs. There is an order of accomplishment that is above and beyond trabalism here, and the detriment of the craft isn't due to manners, it's due to a flow of watered down information. It seems to be that the majority wants a watered down form of the craft, that much is clear.

Some of us don't want it, though. I personally want to get my information from the folks who can tell you how to make the varnish, who can tell me how to dye something permanently, and who can tell me what I should be doing when I say something like "I want to block up this plane and pein the pins and tails, and I don't want it to have stray hammer marks on it, what should I do?"

Well, I'm not going to comment on Chris's bona fides. I will say, however, that I am not in any way, shape or form one of Schwarz's regular followers, whatever that means. I visit his blog once or twice a month, and if something catches my fancy I'll stick around and make a comment or two. I like Chris and have learned much from him. But if I was forced to identify anyone as my online woodworking mentor, which is all that I have at the moment, it would probably be Garrett Hack or Philip Lowe.

I'm fully aware of my inexperience in woodowrking compared to you and many others, David. I'm also aware that not every bit of information I get will be useful or accurate. But I'm also aware that distilling that information, warts and all, is an important part of the learning process. I need to make mistakes in order to learn, and the only way to accomplish that is to make those mistakes. I'm assuming that the knowledge and experience you've gained involved making mistakes.

[george wilson]

Phillip,pay the $6.00 so you can look at the FAQ section at the top of the Neanderthal section. It is infinitely more informative and satisfying than a magazine you'd pay more for,believe me. Search george wilson I made in this forum to find out who I am.

[Chuck Nickerson]

George is just trying to start his own tribe, and that's fine.

I manage to visit tribes without swearing alliegence, and hope to continue.

[Matt McCormick]

images.jpg VS. Claude+Monet+-+Red+Poppies+at+Argenteuil+.jpg

Both are good......... who do you want to model your art after? Kind of like whats going on here eh?

When I was a young Tool and Die apprentice, I asked questions and got as much instruction as humanly possible, we were shipped From Dept to Dept. mold shop die shop tool room engineering, etc, my second six month stint was in the grinding shop. The crusty old Master Craftsman that I was assigned to showed me everything he knew, and then he wrote out my assessment for the apprentice board to review, we then came in front this board, made up of all the vice presidents and managers of the company. As I walked in they were all chuckeling.... I was kinda scared and sat down. The president of the company said "so you are the guy that is going to have new brains"..... Huh??? What..... they all laughed at me, Well, he said your progress report says - This man will have brand new Brains when he is sixty-five, as he sure as Heck don't use his own..... Please help him remove them from the crate he is keeping them in, as he will end up worthless, because of his wanting to do things like his instructors and not applying his skill to problems he is assigned...... This got my attention and I got a valuable education on How to think for myself when actually doing a job. Learn everything you can about your task .... then use your brains in working out how to do it. I hope this is clear and it is not intended to put anybody down but Just how I see this issue. Sorry I am not good at grammar, I make things.... I don't write much, thanks -matt

[george wilson]

I think I may already have a small tribe,Chuck. My main goal is to post as good work as I can,to try to educate as well as possible,answer questions if I can,and help out others in the forum. I guess that inevitably leads to making a tribe,though. I think these things are inseparable. I haven't started any self serving blogs,though,so I've not really made a huge effort to start a tribe as some have!!

[Phillip Dejardin]

images.jpg VS. Claude+Monet+-+Red+Poppies+at+Argenteuil+.jpg

Both are good......... who do you want to model your art after? Kind of like whats going on here eh?

I can't tell the difference. And what's with Monet's hair?

When I was a young Tool and Die apprentice, I asked questions and got as much instruction as humanly possible, we were shipped From Dept to Dept. mold shop die shop tool room engineering, etc, my second six month stint was in the grinding shop. The crusty old Master Craftsman that I was assigned to showed me everything he knew, and then he wrote out my assessment for the apprentice board to review, we then came in front this board, made up of all the vice presidents and managers of the company. As I walked in they were all chuckeling.... I was kinda scared and sat down. The president of the company said "so you are the guy that is going to have new brains"..... Huh??? What..... they all laughed at me, Well, he said your progress report says - This man will have brand new Brains when he is sixty-five, as he sure as Heck don't use his own..... Please help him remove them from the crate he is keeping them in, as he will end up worthless, because of his wanting to do things like his instructors and not applying his skill to problems he is assigned...... This got my attention and I got a valuable education on How to think for myself when actually doing a job. Learn everything you can about your task .... then use your brains in working out how to do it. I hope this is clear and it is not intended to put anybody down but Just how I see this issue. Sorry I am not good at grammar, I make things.... I don't write much, thanks -matt

Exactly!

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. This is to with great trepidation float a few words of a more philosophical/metaphysical nature. Not as a criticism, but as a view on the nature of the human condition - and it's implications for forums in general. I guess the underlying issue in all of this is that while there's a few with little or no axe to grind most of us are ego/self interest driven, and dare i say it - pack/tribal animals. Mostly striving to get ahead/get up the hierarchy of whatever pack/tribe/clique we aspire to membership of at the expense of the other guy. Some play get ahead by subtler means than others, and the objectives tend to depend what we perceive our needs to be.

The result is that we get to see (on forums in general) everything from at one end the unassuming guy that may or may not drop gems of wisdom, through everything in the middle to at the other end (more in the public arena than on forums) the most blatant self promotion - again potentially with or without high levels of expertise. There's those that are unnecessarily deferential, there's those that are quietly but incredibly expert, and there's those that seek to use their bit of expertise to lord it over others and to defend the sand pile. (the caricature blue collar beaver in the check shirt and hard hat in the cartoons that sucks in his breath and uses the jargon to blind all and sundry comes to mind...) There's those that shoot from the hip - that don't even bother reading threads properly, and that tend to interpret them as suits their own agenda. There's signs of a distinctly commercial bias in play on occasion. There's approaches ranging from recreational, to ideological, to getting the job done by the fastest and most cost effective means - with the latter containing everything from the lump hammer merchants to the very methodical and precise.

I guess depending on your life situation and or perspective it can suit/be legitimate to position according to any and more of the above. My personal take for example is that i enjoy precision and techniques that 'work' (that deliver the intended result), and i like to learn - and while i need to make some money it's not the primary driver or even close to it. Dare i say it - i'd like to achieve a degree of respect for my work (whatever it is) too.

There should i think be room and tolerance for all approaches - subject only to their being fact based, honest, rational from whatever perspective and workable. i.e. misleading hot air that leads others into trouble is never healthy. The pity i think is that as in life we tend to get competing factions, often operating uneasily and jockeying for position with others. Alliances form and dissolve according to interests, and myths/accepted standard explanations get negtotiated - with the result that anything that is seen to threaten what in effect is a hard negotiated status quo takes flak. Often from more than one faction.

This to me is the greatest barrier to a forum like this becoming an even more powerful tool than it is already for the development and sharing of diverse methods and information (not all of which will be relevant for everybody) - it's very easy to get bogged down and end up defending and repeating ad infinitum (out of a perceived need to stay safe/keep in with the tribe/'fit in') a safe but ultimately sterile dogma/status quo.

Which if it happens must (a) render whole areas of discussion unmentionable (e.g. stuff like the loose machine manufacturer's specifications which i've raised elsewhere), and (b) block the discussion of methods beyond idealised versions that sometimes as a result don't address all the practical realities.

Anyway. Fire away.....

ian

[David Weaver]

images.jpg

Happy little tribes. Happy little blogs. Happy little chipbreakers. And a titanium white plane iron for all.