End Grain Tearout Woes on the Shooting Board

[Rich Seifert]

Hello all. I made a shooting board yesterday with the intent of being productive ... turned out to be a MAJOR time bust for me ... all I did was waste time making the board and troubleshooting, sharpening, etc.. Intent was to be micro-trim and square end-grain of foot-long parts a couple of inches wide.

I am using a Lie Nielsen Low-Angle Jack Plane with a Hot Dog (for the shooting board), within which, the blade is bed at 12*. I used the Charlesworth method with a Sigma Power Select II 1200, Sigma Power 6000, and a Sigma Power 13000 for polishing). I sharpened as follows: 20* Grind Angle, a 24* Primary Bevel, and 1* Secondary Bevel, then about 5 strops by hand on horsebutt ... I have hairs jumping off the back of my hand!

This gives me 37* of final cutting angle. I experimented with the throat opening, but ultimately closed it way down. I tried slicing end-grain on both poplar and oak - neither are as clean as what I got off the tablesaw with a cross-cut blade. Waste of time: tearout, tearout, tearout!

Is my shooting board design possibly problemmatic? Or is my blade angle wrong for this application? Please see the shooting board pics: I created a stair-step to keep the blade of the plane from "eating" the shooting board. The first step is at the height of the blade and there's a 3/16" gap between the sole of the plane and the edge of the 90* fence/stop. Maybe the gap is too big? Uggggh! What could be wrong? Thanks so much for your time and assistance! Happy Holidays!
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Regards,
Rich

[Steve Friedman]

Can't see attachments. I use the same tool and the same sharpening stones but have never had tearout problems. Do you mean blowout (spelching) at the end of the cut? Not sure what you mean by 3/16" gap, but on mine (from Evenfall), the gap between the sole of the plane and the 90 fence is only the thickness of the cut.

Steve

[Charles Murray Ohio]

Make shure you take very light cuts and use a scrap board as a backup thats even with the edge that your planing to prevent spelching ( as Steve mentioned )

[Rich Seifert]

Thanks Steve and Charles. If I understand correctly, spelching is the "blow-out" of the rear that I can eliminate with either a chamfer on the rear or a back-up scrap board. I'm not talking about spelching. Instead, I'm talking about planing resulting in very rough end-grain that looks like fibers aren't being cut, but rather that they are being torn-out in chunks. I can try a back-up board. I tried re-uploading the pics of the shooting board. Thanks again for your time... Rich

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Can't see your attachments either. The stair step shouldn't be necessary at all - the plane cuts into the shooting board, until the sidewalls of the plane stop it from cutting any further. (That's why you wouldn't use a rabbeting plane; it would continue to eat away at the shooting board because with no sidewalls there would be nothing to stop it from continuing on. The only thing I can think of that I've done on my shooting boards that resembles what you mention there is adding a small groove along the track to catch any dust and small shavings so that they don't interfere with the plane, like what you might do with a drill press jig, but it's not necessary.

Hard to tell what you're talking about without the pictures working, but if a couple of tips - if you knife your line boldly, and sneak up on that, you can often eliminate any spelching or tearing, as it will chip out at the knife line. Fine cuts helps. A backer board like Charles suggests works great, it will chip out instead of the workpiece. Depending on the setup, sometimes you can make the fence of the shooting board work like this, but I haven't always had the best of luck with that.

If my board is square enough, I often shoot the ends, and then go back and plane the edges afterwards to remove any chip out.

I also use my shooting board less - I used to shoot every edge, but now I stop and think about it - if the piece is going to be tenoned, I really don't care if the end grain of the tenon is super square, just the shoulders. If it's going to be mortised, I often leave it long to keep it from splitting when mortising and cut it after. For a lot of dovetailed pieces, if the ends are square enough to mark out my joinery, I don't shoot the ends since i'm going to clean them up later - maybe some pieces get shot to get all the pieces even, although for some woods, I shoot them because it makes the layout lines easier to see.

Wetting the end grain with alchohol or mineral spirits (or even water) can also make cutting end grain easier. I use a "blender" marker (basically an alchohol based marker without pigment, just the solvent) to do this, as it's a quicker application than cracking open a can and ragging it on.

[Steve Friedman]

Pictures help. I'm not a shooting board expert, but think you have too many "steps." Look at the Lie-Nielsen plan or the shooting boards that Evenfall sells. There's only one step. The second "step" is the groove made by the plane blade the first time you use the board and it's really small. I think the board you are shooting is too far from the sole of the plane.

Steve

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Ah - attachments are working for me now. Any pictures of the edges you've shot?

I assume you're riding the plane on what looks like the MDF. No reason at all for the rabbet in the plywood - and not supporting the wood right up to where the cutting is occuring may be part of the problem.

I also see you made your shooting board out of plywood. I did mine like this as well, and depending on the plywood you've used, I know that my blades were getting really dull using that board - the grit or the glue or something in the plywood would just do a number on the blade after a while. Certainly was serviceable, but lipping the plywood edge on mine was very helpful. I used the cheap stuff though. Don't think this is really the problem though, if your blade is still as sharp afterwards.

If you can shave with the blade it's sharp, but I'd try working some stock with the same setup, on the endgrain if you can, outside of the shooting board, to take that out of the equation. Are you getting anything close to a shaving, or just dust? If it's just dust, it's not really sharp enough (although any shavings will probably break into dust easily being endgrain.) Lighter cuts are definitely key here though.

I'm using the same set up as you. It's usually Jim's job to chime in and welcome folks to the creek and encourage them to update their profile with their location, but I'll do the same (welcome!) and say if you're anywhere near me I'd be glad to see your setup and show you mine if it would help.

I wouldn't worry about blade angle - I've done end grain shooting with standard planes (and even BU blades ground at higher angles) and while lower makes better work, sharp is key.

[Gary Hodgin]

+1, the rebate is the problem. There's no support for the end grain at the back of the cut.

[David Wong]

I recently spent time tuning a shooting board. As others have said, you do not need the second step providing the 3/16" gap. Your jack plane will cut a shoulder to ride in. One other thing you should do is to wax your mdf runway. This made a big difference for me in the ease of shooting - (I was using a quartersawn white oak runway). Make sure you are taking very light cuts. It sounds like your cuts may be too deep.

Others can chime in here, but I do not know if it is realistic to expect a cut as clean as from a table saw. You should expect the end fibers cut when shooting, but you will not have them burnished and polished like off a table saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry guys - it is NOT about adding backup to the board. Yes, I know that is common wisdom, and boards are often made to have a fence against the blade, however what then happens when the blade is set a tad deeper and a bit of the fence os removed. And it is not about a sharp blade. You can create spelching (breakout) with a sharp blade.

Think of what you do when you use a block plane on end grain that is clamped in your face vise. What you do is chamfer the far end. Well, you need to do the same when shooting endgrain on the shooting board.

There is a section on this here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...%20Board4.html

Chamfer the end with a plane ...



... or a chisel ..



Now shoot to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrae Covington]

Below is a pic of my current shooting board. Even worse than plywood, most of it is MDF, egads. I'm so uncouth. But I put in a strip of cherry because I was concerned about the MDF doing a number on my blade. By the way, I don't recommend MDF for the running surface, unless you put a coat of shellac or something on it. I waxed it with beeswax but there's still a little too much friction.

Anyway hopefully you can see the edge on the piece of cherry I was shooting. It's pretty nice and clean, as you were expecting. I agree with others that the extra rabbet may be causing problems, if you're getting tearout all along rather than just spelching at the back edge. There is just the teeniest rabbet in the side of the cherry strip from the extension of the blade past the sole of the plane. That's all you want.

Another tip: I usually moisten the end grain with denatured alcohol or mineral spirits before shooting. This makes the fibers easier to cut.

shootingboard-in-action.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

It's usually Jim's job to chime in and welcome folks to the creek and encourage them to update their profile with their location, but I'll do the same (welcome!) and say if you're anywhere near me I'd be glad to see your setup and show you mine if it would help.

LOL!

Lately I haven't been on line this late in the day.

Rich, welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't show your location. You may live near another member who would be happy to look at you situation close up.

Derek has some good information on shooting boards.

A few things come to mind with your set up.

My first thought is the distance created by your rebate is likely a problem.

Another thought is even though end grain looks like there isn't a "grain direction" often times there is. Sometimes flipping the board over helps.

How does the plane do set the same way on edge grain? Set it to take a thin to moderate shaving on edge grain to see if this helps. What works best for me is to take as light a cut as possible on the end grain but not to the point of just making dust. Occasionally with pine my end grain shooting looks like there is tear out, but it. A close look shows it to be were the wood fibers separated and left a void. Just as ugly as tear out, but a bit different. Taking a lighter cut usually minimizes this.

If you live in my area, I would be happy to meet and try to help.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Repeating what others have said: 1. the rabbet is detrimental. 2. Your blade is not sharp. Make no excuses; Correct these two items and your problems will be solved.

[Kees Heiden]

Sharp blade. Light cuts. Sharpen often.

[Charlie Stanford]

Hello all. I made a shooting board yesterday with the intent of being productive ... turned out to be a MAJOR time bust for me ... all I did was waste time making the board and troubleshooting, sharpening, etc.. Intent was to be micro-trim and square end-grain of foot-long parts a couple of inches wide.

I am using a Lie Nielsen Low-Angle Jack Plane with a Hot Dog (for the shooting board), within which, the blade is bed at 12*. I used the Charlesworth method with a Sigma Power Select II 1200, Sigma Power 6000, and a Sigma Power 13000 for polishing). I sharpened as follows: 20* Grind Angle, a 24* Primary Bevel, and 1* Secondary Bevel, then about 5 strops by hand on horsebutt ... I have hairs jumping off the back of my hand!

This gives me 37* of final cutting angle. I experimented with the throat opening, but ultimately closed it way down. I tried slicing end-grain on both poplar and oak - neither are as clean as what I got off the tablesaw with a cross-cut blade. Waste of time: tearout, tearout, tearout!

Is my shooting board design possibly problemmatic? Or is my blade angle wrong for this application? Please see the shooting board pics: I created a stair-step to keep the blade of the plane from "eating" the shooting board. The first step is at the height of the blade and there's a 3/16" gap between the sole of the plane and the edge of the 90* fence/stop. Maybe the gap is too big? Uggggh! What could be wrong? Thanks so much for your time and assistance! Happy Holidays!

IMG_1093.jpg

IMG_1094.jpg

IMG_1095.jpg

IMG_1096.jpg

Regards,
Rich

If your intent was to devise something more efficient than even a basic tablesaw with a decent blade at clean crosscutting and squaring up then you're wasting your time with planes. The cuts you mentioned are easily accommodated on a tablesaw (even better with a chop saw).

If it's a matter of comparing the two methodologies, honesty dictates the mention that there is frankly no comparison.