Staining Cherry

[Larry Browning]

I know that the general consensus is to not stain cherry and that over time the finish will darken and become more beautiful. However, on my current project my client has a older china hutch that she want me to match. It is a rather dark red finish that I think I can match fairly well with a dye stain. I do not think she will be very happy with her new dining table if it shows up a light natural cherry and me saying, "give it a few years, and it will look great!"

So I am leaning toward the following finish plan. (of course I will try on scrap before doing the real thing)

transfast water soluble dye stain
de-waxed shellac
Target EM6000

Any words of wisdom before I undertake this adventure? The woodworking is about done on this and I am starting to plan the finish.
I am a little worried about blotching, so any advice on how to reduce that will be quite helpful.
I am a hobbyist that has gotten my first real paying project. I am planning on getting a new band saw with my earnings so I really want her to be happy if I am going to charge her that amount of money.

[Howard Acheson]

The thing to keep in mind is that new cherry dyed to match and old cherry will create a continuing and increasing miss-match over time. The new dyed cherry will continue to darken and become darker than the existing old cherry.

[Larry Browning]

The thing to keep in mind is that new cherry dyed to match and old cherry will create a continuing and increasing miss-match over time. The new dyed cherry will continue to darken and become darker than the existing old cherry.

So how do I get around delivery day? I just don't think she will be happy with it being so light on day one.

[Prashun Patel]

Larry-

I don't think it will take a few years for it to match fairly well - or at least to be complimentary. The only kickstart I would personally use is an amber oil-based finish such as Waterlox Original Sealer Finish.

I made a cherry bar top to 'match' my cherry kitchen table about 2.5 years ago. It started out a little light, but quickly came into range, and now is actually darker than my table. Knowing this, I am forever leery about trying to shortcut the process.

IMHO, you might attempt to convince yr customer that 'complimentary' is better than 'exact' here.

If your instinct still says to add some color, then instead of the Transfast, I'd just use a garnet shellac, and then go to a darker oil based finish like Behlens or Waterlox. You'll get quite dark with these two things.

[John TenEyck]

Customers are funny people; they expect to get what they want. Sooo, I think your plan is a good starting point. However, if you use a topcoat that has a good UV stabilizer package in it, the dyed cherry will stay like you deliver it for many years. Two topcoats I am familiar with are General Finishes Hi Perf. Poly and their Enduro Clear Poly. I made a cherry jewelry box about 4 years ago, finished with the Hi Perf. Poly, and the outside is still no darker than the inside. I recently talked with the chemist at General Finishes, and he told me that they have a maple table finished with the Hi Perf. Poly in a room with windows on 3 sides, and it has changed minimally in 7 years. Sherwin Williams also has a WB topcoat with a UV package, but I don't think it's available to us hobbiests.

John

[Sam Murdoch]

Consider where this piece sits in the room relative to windows and natural daylight. If the piece is mostly in the shadows you should be OK staining to nearly match (just a shade shy of perfect). Otherwise - I defer to the others as I have not tried to blend old cherry with new cherry. Lots of new work made of cherry in my life (more than any other species I have used)
and I do know that cherry will most certainly darken. There is precious little that you can do to avoid it. UV filters sounds like it has merit but then you need to consider the durability factor of such a finish.

[Todd Burch]

Congrats on your commission Larry.

Been there, done this.

I say let her take part in your sample process. She will either approve or, if not, you make another test, but letting her drive the darker or lighter or color direction.

While your cherry will indeed get darker, it's not like the older dark cherry she now has won't also be getting darker over time. I've never heard of cherry reaching a saturation point in its journey to get darker with age.

Perhaps she'll surprise you. After you explain what cherry does over time, perhaps she will decide that it's normal for cherry to be lighter at first, and she will enjoy the process of watching her cherry age.

Hint - open a bottle of wine when she comes over to check out your samples. First explain about cherry, talk about finishes and chemicals and application techniques, and then, after her second glass, show her the samples. Let her initial the back of the one she likes!

Todd

[Sam Murdoch]

Good one Todd. Excellent suggestion to get the client to approve the sample. I do believe though that cherry and mahogany will reach maximum color at least as would be discernible by the average good eye ball.

[Jim Becker]

Larry, the best way to handle this, IMHO, is to set expectations early before you make a project like this for someone. Help them understand the nature of cherry furniture so they can be comfortable with a "little lighter now" so it will match more closely later and over the long term. In my experience, using BLO, shellac and then a top coat, or as an alternative, an oil based varnish that is darker to begin with, results in a decent start and it does darken in a reasonable period of time.

[Jim Foster]

Cherry will go pretty quick, one or two days in the sun can do a lot. You can also leave it under strong lights to help it go. I also think Cherry is one of those woods that can get "blotchy" when stained with most stains and gel stains like Bartley's, tend to work best.

[sheldon pettit]

Larry i wont argue with any answer's so far, they all have their own merits. But in my career, i have just use the two simple techniques of either 2 part bleach and or bleaching lacquer or another method on occasion called bleach toner [a pigmented way to give the cherry etc., more lightness] the last is not what i recommend to begin with though, more for copying older furniture done that way from the factory.

With bleaching, it is not necessary to lighten the wood alot, you can use a diluted bleach that will still lighten the wood to an extent, the main thing is, once bleached, the cherry or other woods that naturally darken, will remain that color ok? Then you can apply both dyes and stain to bring it in to the color needed without concerns that you or other may presently have. Old trick, one it seems, no one cares or needs to use anymore or just doesn't know about .

[John TenEyck]

Yes, exactly, always makes samples and have the customer approve/reject them until you find one they like/want/are willing to pay for. Any other approach too easily leads to heartache. Whether making a new piece or matching an existing, I always do this.

I also agree with the comment that cherry will reach a saturation point where any additional color change is imperceptible. And many people don't seem to realize that all woods, cherry included, will bleach out if exposed to direct sunlight for too long. I've seen some bleach so badly after 15 years or so it's hard to tell the wood is even cherry.

And Larry, some unsolicited advise. Get a down payment before you buy materials. It's up to you how much, but it needs to be enough that it commits the client to the job or, if they back out, you aren't stiffed for the materials. Some people have multiple payment requirements, like 25% down payment, 50% when the build is done, and 25% at delivery. It varies, but all such approaches are aimed to keep the customer committed and the builder protected.

John

John

[Aaron Menning]

I have gotten amazing results using lye to darken cherry. If you do some searches you should be able to find the best way to use it.

[Larry Browning]

And Larry, some unsolicited advise. Get a down payment before you buy materials. It's up to you how much, but it needs to be enough that it commits the client to the job or, if they back out, you aren't stiffed for the materials. Some people have multiple payment requirements, like 25% down payment, 50% when the build is done, and 25% at delivery. It varies, but all such approaches are aimed to keep the customer committed and the builder protected.

John

John

John,
I have already screwed this whole deal up pretty badly. This is a large 6 ft round dining room table that I am making for my son's girl friend. We did not settle on a price other than she would pay me a fair price when I completed it. I really have no expectation as to what she might think of as fair. I am basing my expectation on just getting enough out of it to buy me a new band saw. Also, I will not expect her to pay a premium price if my work is not good or it does not meet her expectations. Plus, the whole payment thing may end up being a moot point if they happen to get engaged, at which point it will morph into a wedding present. (I am told by my boss that this is not a negotiable thing!) So, if I am going to get a new band saw I really need to finish before something like that happens But this may be a topic for whole other thread in the near future.

[John TenEyck]

John,
I have already screwed this whole deal up pretty badly. This is a large 6 ft round dining room table that I am making for my son's girl friend. We did not settle on a price other than she would pay me a fair price when I completed it. I really have no expectation as to what she might think of as fair. I am basing my expectation on just getting enough out of it to buy me a new band saw. Also, I will not expect her to pay a premium price if my work is not good or it does not meet her expectations. Plus, the whole payment thing may end up being a moot point if they happen to get engaged, at which point it will morph into a wedding present. (I am told by my boss that this is not a negotiable thing!) So, if I am going to get a new band saw I really need to finish before something like that happens But this may be a topic for whole other thread in the near future.

Oh, that's a different can of worms. Relatives, or friends of relatives, is a tough situation. I would either do it just for the cost of materials or agree up front on the price. Either way, leaving it open ended only leads to grief. I get calls all the time from friends of friends who know I build furniture, do trim work, etc. You cannot believe how many do not call back after I give them what I think is a fair quote, one I know is far less than a commercial shop would charge. Better to find out how serious the girl friend is about wanting a new table before you spend any money.

John