chisel quality

[John Piwaron]

I’m a little disappointed.

I’ve noticed that I’m sharpening my Sorby chisels fairly often. Bench and Mortise. Even then, they don’t stay sharp for long. The edge begins rolling fairly quickly.

I checked the angle I’ve sharpened them at. That’s not too shallow. It's about 30 degrees. Some are higher. But then I checked the Rockwell hardness. There’s the problem. Rc58 near the cutting end. That’s it. Kind of soft for what they do. Rc56 about 2 inches back.

For comparison’s sake I checked a chisel I have that’s likely older than I am. It’s the only one I have from my wife’s carpenter uncle. It was made by Buck Brothers. Probably nothing more than a plain old run of the mill hardware store item at the time it was new. Judging by the handle it’s clearly seen plenty of hard use. It’s Rc63.5 near the cutting end, Rc59.7 about 2 inches back. This one doesn't see the stone very often.

Sorby chisels say Sheffield steel. Then I notice that the marketing blurb for them on the Woodcraft site doesn’t mention anything at all about hardness. But Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and the Japan Woodworker do. The LV and L-N say 60 – 62Rc. The Japanese chisels are Rc65.

So I've ordered 2 chisels from L-N to try them out.

I’m also going to keep a watch for those old Buck Bros. chisels. They seem worth having.

[David Weaver]

If you're looking for better chisels, you'll find them in the current premium and in the vintage chisels.

58 hardness in a simple steel should be hard enough, but maybe the alloy is more of a chrome vanadium. AT any rate, Sorby chisls have been criticized fairly regularly as being soft or having edges that roll too easily.

Many of the japanese chisels are a little softer than they say they are (a buddy of mine with access to a hardness tester tested a few). I think Stan Covington mentioned that he'd found from makers that as more of their customers are hobby woodworkers, they were getting too many complaints about how hard it is to sharpen a chisel that's actually 65 hardness. The ones we tested were closer to 62 (this didn't include any premium chisels, just the ones that are about $45 each), which probably makes for a nicer chisel for the average woodworker, anyway.

At any rate, if it's not holding up at 30 degrees, you're doing what you need to do in trying something else.

[Jim Koepke]

My Buck Brothers chisels are my favorites for staying sharp and being good users.

My only Sorby chisels are for my lathe. Two of the three do seem to dull quicker than others.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Try the new Lee Valley powered metal chisels. Buy one and see how it works for you. I find them to hold up better than the LN chisels.

Mike

[george wilson]

Hardness is not the only gauge about chisel quality. There is also carbon content. I suspect Sorby has been using lower carbon content steel,because they are always bad about edge holding.

Sheffield steel means nothing,either. Some places have been sliding on their reputations for 200 years. Same for german Solingen steel.

Sears chisels made in Holland were found to have the incredibly LOW carbon content of .50% in a FWW study several years ago. That's just enough to harden,but wear resistance is very poor at that low a carbon content. 1095 spring steel,which all the good,individual saw makers have been using,is 1.95% carbon. That is a decent steel. However,in chisels(that aren't made to be springs),it is possible to add other alloys like vanadium,manganese,chrome,etc.. These alloys add various good properties to tool steels,such as increased wear resistance and toughness.

The new PM chisels by LV represent a new plateau in quality tool making. Powdered metal tech allows the formulating of super alloys that cannot be made by the normal means of just melting them into the steel. Plus,the LV PM tools are cryo treated,which is a substantial leap in tool quality as well. I certainly like my PM block plane blade. If you can afford them,they would be a great investment(in terms of woodworking use).

[Mel Fulks]

John, you have taken a Great Leap Forward ,but it's not just Buck Brothers.Any of the old ones marked "cast steel" are usually good and worth buying ,especially at a low price. BB brand has a lot of collectors who at times elevate their price.I don't buy any of the newer BB, as they are not cast steel.

[Jeff Heath]

New chisels like Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Blue Spruce, etc.....are all beautiful chisels, and you won't be disappointed no matter which you choose. However, they are, like all high quality items these days, kind of pricey, nearing 75 bucks or so, give or take, per chisel.

If you're diligent and you don't mind used, older tools, you can easily put together quality sets for yourself that will cost a fraction of 75 bucks per copy. Stay away from the collector brands like Stanley 750's, Witherby's, etc.....and look for brands like Greenlee (older only), PS&W, etc....this list has been compiled many times on the internet before. The quality of the steel is mostly excellent in these older chisels, and you can get chisels for $10 to $15 apiece. I've got a great working set of Greenlee chisels I've compiled 2 to 3 at a time, and now have 12 or so. They all needed a little more work than usual getting their backs flat, and the bevels square, but that's a one time labor expense. They stay very sharp for as long as any of the pricey ones, and you can put together an entire set for yourself for under $100.

Later on, once you've decided what you prefer in a chisel handle, you can turn yourself a matching set of handles in the length and thickness you desire and have a beautiful "matched set" of chisels that feel good in your hand, cut well, stay sharp, and cost under $100 and few pieces of scrap hardwood.

Or, if you prefer instant oatmeal, scratch a check for $350 to LN and never look back. 20 years from now, they'll still be worth the money.

Jeff

[Jonathan McCullough]

I have some new wooden-handled Buck Bros bench chisels from Craftsman Studios, still made in USA, and they're just great. The steel takes a very keen edge and holds up very well, though I believe it's only rated to 58-59. The backs weren't precision-ground like some premium brands, but polished up relatively quickly. The 2" chisel was a bit tedious, but easier to flatten than most of the old chisels I happen to find, and it's one of the handiest ones to have around, like a pocket knife with a handle perpendicular to the edge for extra control. I like to use it to break edges on curves, cut twine, pick my teeth, you know. The handles have a nice balance to them, but the shape is not as ergonomic as some old style Bucks, and they sport leather washers. The urethane mallet I use is pretty kind to chisel handles, but if you use a wooden mallet the leather washers might be an asset. I also like that they have tangs instead of sockets. In my shop, even well-seated socket chisels can get loose, and maybe it's just me, but I sometimes have been known to pick up a socket chisel and get a little pinch on the first mallet-blow.

[Mike Henderson]

John, you have taken a Great Leap Forward ,but it's not just Buck Brothers.Any of the old ones marked "cast steel" are usually good and worth buying ,especially at a low price. BB brand has a lot of collectors who at times elevate their price.I don't buy any of the newer BB, as they are not cast steel.

There's nothing really special about cast steel. Cast steel was just a technique for producing good tool steel about 100 years ago. But what was good tool steel back then might be considered inferior steel today.

I have a set of Swan "cast steel" chisels and a set of Witherby's. I've tested both against modern chisels with modern steel and neither is as good as the modern chisels.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Cast steel was pretty special, started to catch on around 1800 and stopped being made almost a hundred years ago. The best description of its quality and complicated mfg.is in the 11th edition of the Encyclopedia Brittanica which I've been told is free online. Look up "iron and steel" and find the section on "crucible steel". It has been stated that the new LV stuff is superior and some of the other expensive chisels are superior. There are some old name chisels (being made by new people) that are worthless. Cast steel will be a revelation to any one wanting quality stuff at an affordable price.Often they are soft for an. 1/8 inch or so because someone let them get too hot while grinding them. Cast steel razors still get good reviews. Lets see what others report back after trying some CS.

[David Posey]

George, I was under the impression that 1095 was .95% carbon, not 1.95%, and that the last two numbers (at least for the 10XX range) approximated the percentage of carbon. Is this correct?

One would think if the Sorby chisels were alloyed properly, that it would add to their performance instead of degrading it. I know the Narex chisels are advertised as having a Chrome-Manganese alloy, and they hold an edge well after the first few sharpenings. By many reports the Sorbys are chisel shaped objects, rather than actual tools.

[Mike Henderson]

There are some other good references on cast steel, one of the best being "Steel Making Before Bessemer, Volume 2 - Crucible Steel" by K. C. Barraclough. The problems our ancestors had with steel, prior to the late 19th century, was their inability to analyze the components of the steel. The recipes for cast steel were primarily just guesses as to what would produce the best steel. Their problem was that the components of the melt were usually not the same from batch to batch and they couldn't analyze the melt to determine what to do to modify it. They used iron from Sweden because it usually produced a better steel but they didn't know why. It was the same problem that Bessemer had when he developed his process. His initial tests were run with Swedish iron and were successful. Later attempts to run the process with local (English) iron failed and it took years to figure out why.

When you read the steel making history of that time, you see buyers time and time again complaining about the quality of the steel. They say things like, "Please send me more steel like the first shipment. Your recent shipment of steel was unacceptable." It was because the steel makers could not adequately control the process.

Mike

[Jason Coen]

Compared to the steels available today, there is nothing metalurgically remarkable about cast steel.

[Jason Coen]

When you read the steel making history of that time, you see buyers time and time again complaining about the quality of the steel. They say things like, "Please send me more steel like the first shipment. Your recent shipment of steel was unacceptable." It was because the steel makers could not adequately control the process.

Mike

Which is why it is my supposition that the cast steel chisels that are around today were the chisels made from the "good" batches. The chisels that came from the "poor" batches of steel were simply ground/sharpened up long ago.

[Mike Henderson]

Which is why it is my supposition that the cast steel chisels that are around today were the chisels made from the "good" batches. The chisels that came from the "poor" batches of steel were simply ground/sharpened up long ago.

I have often said the same thing.

Mike