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Thread: Wood Magazine to Test Whole Shop Cyclones

  1. #91
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    I wouldn't want to be a zealot on the topic Phil, and it seems likely that reduced exposure should lessen the risk. Against that though there's a long history of our underestimating the effects of environmental health factors.

    It doesn't necessarily take a lot of dust to cause problems either - I know for example that in my own case my sensitivity to dust started following a period of about seven years of seemingly innocent hobby building of model aircraft from balsa wood. I did a lot of hand block sanding of parts to fit using a technique much like a shooting board during that time.

    I do agree that some respectable (statistically as credible as is reasonably possible) investigation of the recorded incidence of problems and stating of what it is would be useful. Not because it seems like it needs proving that wood dust is harmful (national health and safety bodies the world over have already pretty much standardised on the 1 - 5mg/m3 TLV range limit for industry, and there presumably is a clear basis for this, and the US ACGIH for example seems pretty clear on it too), but because perhaps reduced exposure is less of an issue.

    How much less is open to question - it's pretty clear from this forum that there's rather more than a few of us older guys that have experienced issues relating to wood dust. Actually possibly quite a high proportion of those posting it seems, and quite a proportion of those that I know in the business here too that might not be regarded as ill but boy do they tend to wheeze a lot. There's of course too always the woodworking equivalent of your mythical grandmother about who smoked like a chimney all her life, sank a large whisky every night and is still flying at 90.

    'Proof' Phil I think is a mythical beast that's never truly found on stuff like this, and ends up becoming a football to be kicked around by the interested parties. It tends to entail the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and the tragedy of that approach is that it tends to be that (a) by the time the risk is proven to the standard demanded by law it's far too late for many, and (b) the bigger vested interests have in other fields a long established history of weighing in to buy or use bad science to muddy the waters and greatly delay any such eventuality.

    Common sense suggests taking a careful look, but where a significant risk seems likely erring on the side of caution until better data is available. i.e. the law tends to create a scenario where the objectors have to 'prove' a problem, when in practice the onus should surely be on the sponsors of potentially dangerous processes and technologies to prove (or at least demonstrate to an acceptably high level of assurance) their safety.

    It'd be unfortunate should any dust systems project bog down through politically correct or mistaken chasing of will of the wisps.

    The other issue you raise is the question of which solutions work, and which don't. As above it seems rational enough that with effective hooding its likely that smaller systems can if optimised (short and free flowing connections etc) and used on small machines can do a good job. The task here is clearly to table cost effective solutions that work - so none should be excluded on ideological grounds. One big caution in that regard though is that one of the big benefits of high CFM and pressure capable systems is that they handle bigger machines much better, and are much less sensitive to loss of performance through issues like dirty filters, less than perfect machine hoods, restrictions in the system, awkward to shield cuts and so on. It's surely more advisable that DIY woodworkers are steered towards equipment that's as tolerant of less than ideal installations as is possible....
    Last edited by ian maybury; 01-22-2013 at 1:28 PM.

  2. #92
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    I know I frequently mention the ACGIH manual, but it lists TWA (8-hr time weighted average) values for wood dust (0.5 mg/m3 for red cedar 1 mg/m3 for all other species). They also provide specific hood designs, exhaust volumes, and hood SP (static pressure) requirements intended to meet these TWAs for most of the machines we commonly use. I'm not saying these are the finite answer as there are other wood species known to cause more irritation (a table of those is provided too). If dealing with those woods or the user is particularly sensitve, the exhaust volumes can be increased by the designer as long as they don't limit the function of the tool. I know BP is referenced here a lot as being the "wood dust guru" but he referenced ACGIH in his writings and his exhaust volumes seem correspond fairly closely in most cases, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. ACGIH has been developing this resource for over 50 years.

    Just saying it is a good reference that correlates air quality to hood design and exhaust volume. Once you have the hood design and exhaust volume, the rest of the system design (duct system) falls into place.

    Next you have to separte the dust from the air and return it (or exhaust it). This is where the general public relies on the equipment they purchase to do the job. Problem is, the ratings and performance is difficult to understand due to lack of knowledge and mis-information provided.

    It is not uncommon to recirculate air for a clean room, or least a large % of it. You have to pay a lot of money for filtration and space conditioning, yet you still need air changes and point exhaust in places. Exhausting 100% of this air outside is usually not economically justifiable, at least for a large number of applications here.

    Mike
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-22-2013 at 1:38 PM.

  3. #93
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    I'm not familiar with the ACGIH standards Michael, other than that by hearsay it's quite a resource. What you say more or less repeats the point - there is good data out there, the problem is for the DIY/hobby punter (a) to get to it, (b) be able to use it (it may be that it requires some background understanding of the basic technicalities), and (c) its hard to select equipment if the equipment isn't properly specified.

    Do you know much about how the ACGIH works? Does it require membership, is the data readily accessible on line, is it complete in the areas likely to be of interest to us, and on what basis does the organisation make its information available? If it for example was to be drawn on as the basis for a DIY/Hobby dust systems manual would that require the payment of significant fees? Do they offer distance learning courses focusing on the wood dust issue?

    The website (not done any digging yet) looks promising: http://www.acgih.org

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 01-23-2013 at 9:10 AM.

  4. #94
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    Ian,
    I think it is a good source for those with a DC and mechanical background who are interested in the details and engineering. I think it would be too technical for the average user (not trying to say they can't understand it, just goes beyond the average person's level of interest). I do think the vent manual is an excellent reference for many of the applications encountered in today's hobby ww shops. It would be a good reference to use in creating a short artilce or book geared toward hobby wwing.

    I don't think you have to be a member, most of the data is published in the manual that is available for purchase. There are courses available based on the ACGIH method (not sure about across the pond) in the US. (I am an instructor at one and am a substitue instructor on another). The classes are a good value from a corporate/company stanpoint for CEUs and PDHs (educational contact credits for professionals). I doubt an individiual would be willing to spend the money for a 3-4 day class plus travel and expenses, unless this is related to their primary source of income.

    The vent manual is more like an engineering textbook with tables and values published. There is chapter in the back that lists hood designs, flows, and hood SP for many applications ranging from WWing to material handling, to fume control and clean rooms. Industrial exhaust, supply air, and general ventilation are described in detal.

    The manual is about $140 and the new one has both US and metric units.
    Mike
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-23-2013 at 12:50 PM.

  5. #95
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    Ta Michael. I guess the thought on my mind was that woodworking might only have accounted for a small part of the territory they covered. Also that since the focus is primarily industrial (multiple machine systems, and little or no recirculation of air) that some of the methods and equipment may be a bit different to what we need.

    The training i had in HVAC was back in the 80s on an in company programme run by a US multinational over here. (Polaroid actually) The lead guy was from the corporate Facilities group in Boston, it was a revelation to find out just how well defined the technical methods were (and that they were pretty straight forward since air is treated as incompressible at our pressures - i was used to the fluids theory i learned in college which dealt mostly with compressible flow which made it all a lot more complex), and just how accessible they were in Boston to anybody prepared to attend night school...

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 01-23-2013 at 2:44 PM.

  6. #96
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    Ian,
    It is different in those respects you mention (multiple branches, multiple industries, etc.). However, it is a starting point with a relation to TWA and hood design. In industry, workers will wear an air monitor to record the exposure. If the exposure is too high, then we were often asked to evaluate the exhaust system as it would pertain to ACGIH standards. "Most" of the times, the system were found to be lacking when compared to ACGIH. However, there are times when the systems were up to ACGIH specs, but the specific application called for a better solution. You can usually improve the DC or add additional supply air to bring down the dust concentration (as long as the supply air is cleaner). You know what they say "dillution is the solution".

    They do have specific examples for most ww machines.
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-23-2013 at 4:25 PM.

  7. #97
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    I dunno, I think the argument about how much is needed gets slightly off of the track for testing the collectors themselves (although it could well be another chapter). I'm not saying its not valuable or interesting, but essentially I'm more interested in raw data and then would prefer to draw my own conclusions. The questions I would like to see answers to are more easily measured but still darn hard to find.

    For example on the blower/cyclone/baffle/collector side:
    • Given X volume/m of material at size Y how much bypasses the cyclone, scale X and Y independently and plot the curve.
    • If dust of size X is blown at the filters how much passes through the filter, scale X.
    • Actual fan curves showing real world CFM. Largely this has to be some somehow independent of the design of the end point collection hood/connector as that is not indicative of the performance of the collector (again not saying this is unimportant)


    As a separate discussion the air volume required to adequately clear the dust/chips/microscopic pieces of lint from a representative set of machines (for example for planers from a new euro machine vs one of Davids cast iron beasts as two examples) would be useful (ideally with several criteria, i.e. clears all of the chips, dylos/whatever air particle count, etc). I do realize that this is where its easy to get subjective, but you can minimize that with some effort.

    One could then combine these data sets to determine what you wanted/needed to deploy for your configuration and comfort level.

    Now I know some parts of this have been done, but not at a generally useful scale. Most of the data easily obtainable is along the lines of the rough guidance in (for example) the back of the Jet DC manual with no curves or information around the .

    tldr: It would be useful to have data that represents the complexity of dust collection instead of absolute numbers like "table saw, needs 50CFM ".

  8. #98
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    Ryan,
    I agree, we are not necessarily on topic. In an earlier post, I presented a test method for the collectors. I am sure there are other methods that may be workable too. The method I proposed would develop a curve for each collector. We have used this method for testing systems where origianl performance data was unknown or not applicable anymore. With the test method I proposed, you would need to measure the pressure drop between the inlet to the cyclone and outlet of the fan on your system. You could then determine the actual CFM based on the curve from the test. Now that you have the CFM, the next step is to determine how much CFM is required by the machine and compare it to the CFM you are actually pulling.

    As far as filtration, cyclone efficiency is the major unknown and has to be tested as you say. The difficulty is testing different manufacturer's cyclones at the same CFM. What if they are not optimized for the CFM chosen for the test? If you test them at different flows, it will take some massaging of the data to get the efficiency at a different flow. Cyclone efficiency is sensitive to many variables and volume is one of them. Efficiencies for filter media are available (though maybe not readily). Spun Bond poly is quite common, reasonably priced, and can get efficiencies in the 99%+ range for 1-2 micron, maybe better. If all collectors are using the same filter material, then you need to look at filter area (cloth area). More area is more better.

    I think where we got detracted (is that a word?) is the idea that you could do all these technical tests and present the results, but there may be a lot of people that don't know how to interpret the test results as they would apply to their system, or they may simply not care.

    Either way, I think it will be interesting to read the article. I noticed in the teaser picture they did have a u-tube manometer and a pitot tube in the duct, so they are at least giving the impression that there will be some flows and statics presented.

    Mike
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 01-23-2013 at 6:53 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark View Post
    <snip>The difficulty is testing different manufacturer's cyclones at the same CFM. What if they are not optimized for the CFM chosen for the test? If you test them at different flows, it will take some massaging of the data to get the efficiency at a different flow. Cyclone efficiency is sensitive to many variables and volume is one of them. Efficiencies for filter media are available (though maybe not readily). Spun Bond poly is quite common, reasonably priced, and can get efficiencies in the 99%+ range for 1-2 micron, maybe better. If all collectors are using the same filter material, then you need to look at filter area (cloth area). More area is more better.

    <snip> there may be a lot of people that don't know how to interpret the test results as they would apply to their system, or they may simply not care.
    Yep in a perfectly ideal world the testing protocol would isolate and independently test each of those variables (up to some level of "care"; which I'm sure would be a strong point of contention whatever was chosen ). For instance you could vary the material size and CFM independently for a couple of data sets of each you could do some moderately interesting extrapolated curves for the intermediate points.

    Ditto testing filters, remove them from the cyclone and just pump dust into them (or re-publish the data from someone who has, I'm sure this part has been done). Once you know that and the bypass rate - glorious success (or fail, but you have the data anyway).

    I'm sure you are correct on folks getting overwhelmed with all of the raw data. I'm not suggesting that there would be no absolutish (also not a real word) conclusions to be reached from this but that they would be summaries based on the underlying data. You would also be able to give more specific advise along the lines of "well designed modern machine like A,B,C has this CFM/airborne dust curve, brutish old beast needs has this other CFM/dust curve).

  10. #100
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    Not sure if I'm picking you up correctly (think we are possibly saying the same thing), but i'd say say Ryan that there's a tendency to avoid the basic capacity issue (volume capability in CFM and pressure capability in in WG) in mag tests.

    Realistically the starting point in dust collection is always the CFM required at the point of work to do a decent job. This with the length, size and total restriction of the run to the exhaust determines the required pressure capability - and total pressure drop X CFM is proportional to the the required HP.

    The problem as I see it is that a lot of the time the testing tends to jump to looking at stuff like retention capability (what proportion of what size of dust is captured) without necessarily first rating capacity. (basic pressure/CFM capability)

    Required capacity in the first case determines whether or not a system may be able to handle a given application - no matter how well a system filters or separates out dust if it's mouse powered/not moving enough air then it's not going to get the job done properly. Only then can we move on to looking at cyclone retention, filtration, filter life, filter cost, operating requirements, maintenance requirements and so on.. All of the components (cyclone, filters, ducts, silencers hoods, hoses etc) have to first be sized to pass the required CFM at an acceptable pressure drop (to not be overly restrictive) and airspeed (for effective transportation) - only then does the question of their specific performance kick in...

    As somebody said earlier HP should all being equal be a pretty decent measure of the capability of a dust system (fan + cyclone + filter combo), but the scope for variation and for using different impellers and the like means that it basically needs a fan curve. Not just any fan curve, but one that is the result of testing in a defined, representative (some curves are taken with for example an unrealistic minimal restriction on the fan inlet) and standardised/comparable test format. They do exist, and industrial fan makers do use them, although i'm not too sure how well suited they (being aimed at more general applications) may be to our situation..

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 01-23-2013 at 8:37 PM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post

    Scare tactics and extremism are the wrong approach, IMHO.
    And that is exactly what they said about cigarette smoking, I rest my case.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  12. #102
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    Before everyone gets too technical let's look at it backwards from a consumer point of view, BTW Steve Jobs always started from exactly that perspective when developing a new product and he knew a thing or two.


    Me as a woodworker walks into a shop and tells the bloke behind the counter that I need a dust collector that works. I should then be able to buy a system or be told in simple language what is needed to safeguard my health. Until we reach that point there will not be wide take up of effective dust control within the hobby end of woodworking, end of story. To reach that point will require a big industry shift and some big players to get involved, I am surprised they aren't sniffing around all ready to be honest as there is definitely a dollar to be made from systems that work. Oneida and CV are only sniffing around the edges and neither has gotten involved in educating the woodworker in any significant way. It will take a massive education program to shift the minds of WW's into actually thinking seriously about buying and before they actually start laying their money down because they have been led up the garden path by the junk most widely used now and possibly sold by the same companies.


    We as woodworkers do not need the data we need a recipe for a system (that works) and can be bought by the average WW. The data being discussed here should provide that system and all its associated parts. The challenge is to get the retail point without confusing everyone, in fact the best way I can put it is we need a dust control book for dummies, anyone up for that? Figure out a way to do that and the battle will be half won, figure out how to get a major manufacturer involved and it will gain momentum and they will all join in. I know I am living in dream land as none of the above will come about.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    Not sure if I'm picking you up correctly (think we are possibly saying the same thing), but i'd say say Ryan that there's a tendency to avoid the basic capacity issue (volume capability in CFM and pressure capability in in WG) in mag tests.
    Yep I believe we're on the same page, throughput of the base system is clearly the most critical aspect and should be tested independently of filter performance, color, yadda yadda. I find the filter sizes for some of the systems suspiciously small, so if I was testing them (which I'm clearly not except from my armchair ) I'd be testing without the filters on at all and just testing the raw cyclone throughput at various pressures and then move out from there. If it can't move sufficient air to do the job everything else is effectively moot (hence also the idea of having more accurate representation "cfm required" numbers for wider variety of machines).

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beckett View Post
    In fact, why don't we just take a donation on this site and see if there is enough interest to go out and gather the needed equipment to do this comparison test. Some members have commercially bought that can be compared against. And there is more than enough equipment and knowledge here to pull this test off (any leftover equipment can be a raffle back to the donators when finished)

    $20 each donation wouldn't take that many people to get the job done... These units wouldn't be very $$ to put together.... Add a couple commercial units that members already have, and you Have some nice comparison of different levels of DC (including something other than large $$$ systems). The readership here might be interested.
    I would be in on this and I think you would have a tremendous number of people very interested in the results. This would be a very worthwhile venture!
    - Lou

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Mike, it is up to the mods to make a sticky thread. I wil send you a link to another forum with a DE subforum.
    Chris,

    Can you please send that to me as well. Thanks.
    - Lou

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