First carving Tools- Hirsch or Pfiel?

[Mike Allen1010]

I am finally going to take the plunge and buy my first carving tools. My objective is to be able to do some simple shells/fans and work up to ball and claw feet.

I am a firm believer in my Dad's favorite saying "buy the best tools you can afford and you'll never be disappointed", however that isn't my wife's favorite saying and I am on a budget. I am trying to decide between the Swiss made Pfiel and the Hirsch carving tools from Lee Valley, but am open to any other options.

I'm not really concerned about which come already sharpened, because I figure I'm going to have to learn how to get them really sharp anyway.

From what I can tell, it seems like the Hirsch tools are slightly less expensive -- maybe around $5 less per gouge etc. I would appreciate any feedback or perspective about different brands of carving tools and these two in particular - whether there is any appreciable difference in how they work, the edge they take etc.

Thanks in advance!

All the best, Mike

[Mark Yundt]

I don't have a lot of experience with the Hirsch tools. I've played with a few but haven't lived with them. They seem fine. And maybe because I have lived with my Pfiels for so long,, see them in every shop I visit that I have to lean this way. Every pro carver seems to use them so I'd say that's a testimonial in itself.
It's not the most objective opinion but they have served me well for the past 25 years of daily use as most of them are still my original chisels. I'm sure though that the Hirschs' could easily do the same.
Boy,, that was helpful wasn't it? But I go into more details on my blog concerning tools and their selection.

[Mike Pounders]

Mark is a gifted carver, and even more difficult, has made a good living with his carving! His advice is always valuable. I'm only an amateur but I have noticed that a lot of really good carvers seem to have a lot of Pfeils. Figured that was a good enough testamonial for me. You'll be surprised how your collection grows, just by buying one or two every now and then. I believe Woodcraft has the full -size individual Pfeil tools 15% off until the end of January (but they have did that every December for a few years now).

[Mike Henderson]

I don't think I have any Hirsch carving tools but I do have a variety of brands - but mostly Pfeil. Go with with suits your hand best. They all seem to hold up well so the deciding factor is how you like them in use.

Mike

[George Van Aken]

Pfiel. It's Pfiels or nothing! If you don"t use the Pfiels, why bother?

Just joking. I haven't got a clue! I just wanted to sound like one of those guys...

I'd go with the one that fit's me the best because they sound comparable in quality.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks for the advice! I don't really have an opportunity to try out different types of carving tools, so I went with the recommendation here for the Pfiels.

It seems that if a majority of the experts favor a particular brand, you can't really go wrong with that-- who am I to go against the grain!


I am committed now-- a few carving tools are on the way, I am watching the DVD of Sam Bush and Mack Headly and I've reviewed Mike's tutorials (thanks Mike for generously sharing your expertise!).

I'll be thrilled if I can just 1) get the gouges sharp, 2) avoid arterial bleeding and 3) end up with something that looks remotely like a shell!!!

The work I've seen here from the experts is fantastic! My objectives are much more modest -- I would like to be able to add some carved embellishments to furniture/casework. In particular I'm interested in doing some egg and dart molding and some simple elements (vines and flowers?) To highlight the horizontal lines along the bottom skirt and top of a matching lowboy and coffee table.

I would very much appreciate any suggestions about where I might be able to see some examples of furniture that incorporates reasonably simple carved elements?

I am horrible at design and I definitely would love to see some good examples of how to incorporate carving into the overall composition of a piece.

I would appreciate any suggestions about books, websites (may be Museums or auction houses?) where I might be able to get some inspiration?

Thanks - Creekers are the best! Most of the new woodworking skills I've learned have come from the folks here and I am eternally grateful!

All the best, Mike

[Mark Yundt]

Well I've carved what would amount to a mile or two of Egg and Dart moulding. And as simple as it may seem it presents its' own particular challenges.One, getting the shape right, Two, getting the pattern to line up correctly, Three,, just making a pattern and Four, getting the pattern to look the same from one section to another. Moldings are a special category in themselves with all the things that have to be in line and gotten just right for it to look good. Not sure how much carving you have done,, but this can be a bugger to do. Be prepared.
You can't do repetitive moldings without a pattern and here again, not to dissuade you, is a challenge in itself. Making a useable pattern ,, and learning how to adjust it so the pattern repeats correctly and ends up at the same point where some corner or intersection occurs can be frustrating. The pattern has to be flexible enough to allow inside or outside corners to be 'disguised' so they appear natural.
Here are a few examples of pieces I've carved of repetitive moldings.
As you can see some have been carved into strips of molding and then mitered on site. These I had to allow some fudge factor to allow this to be done without me being there to adjust each miter. Some have been carved into pre-fitted moldings then put in place. But in each case the exact length of each piece was determined , drawn with the pattern I designed , then carved into the moldings I made for each of the particular design and having each piece end exactly the same from one piece to the next. You have to adjust your pattern depending on the repeat and where the design falls on each corner.
In the first photo you can see the template I made to do the pattern.
In other shots you can see inside ,, and outside corners where I disguised the joint with additional leaves. And you can see how from each egg to the next they have to look consistent.
You don't so much carve a molding like this but turn yourself into a typewriter with the same chisels from cut to cut,, angle to angle, slice to slice and do the same thing over and over again. It's not carving,, you're a machine in a sense. It's the only way to do it.

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[Roman Horoszewski]

Mike

I started carving in the past couple of years. 100% agree with buying the best you can afford. I also took the advice of an experienced carver and started out with tools from a variety of makers to see which I like best, plus there is variation among them especially in the spoon gouges. Henry Taylors are fairly flat while Pfeils have a pretty big crook in them...but you'll need the differing shapes in different situations. Anyway, back to your question. I have Pfeil, Hirsch and Henry Taylors (and I have my eye on a couple of Stubai to try out). The Pfeil and Hirsch come ready to carve (assuming you like where they are at....Pfeil's spoon gouges I always have to completely redo when I get them...too high an angle) while the Henry Taylors I'll call 90% sharpened. I'm very happy with all of them, although I think the Pfeil and Hirsch are somewhat better than the HT's. The Hirsch are a bit heavier and bulkier, but I like that and they feel really good in my hand (but I'm a fairly big guy with very large hands). Right now I've got a list of about 7 gouges I want/need. I've picked out 2 Pfeils, 3 Hirsch and 2 Stubai and will buy along the way.

So not to sound wishy-washy but I'd recommend you buy a few of each and see which you personally like. The other thing is that WoodCraft (Pfeil) has a very large selection while as far as I can see unfortunately, Lee Valley has a somewhat limited selection of Hirsch (they also carry Henry Taylor). Both take an edge well. Don't know how much you've spent on (or already have) in terms of sharpening gear but in order to do it right (and not have it be frustratingly slow), you're going to have to spend a few bucks there on stones and you'll need a stropping board (I made mine for next to nothing). Of my time allotted to carving, a sizable chunk is spent keeping my tools sharp...so there again, buy the best sharpening gear you can afford. Nothing worse than dull tools. I also have a bench grinder with a cool wheel and a felt wheel. That certainly helps.

Hope this was useful!

Roman

[Roman Horoszewski]

Mark

Beautiful stuff!