Kezuroukai, Planing Competition Finals 2012

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I will now "If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to 'dis' something you don't fully understand."

I am not "dising" the skill, I have the outmost respect and appreciation for the Japanese ways, patience and dedication - and you can ask my wife.
I was judging the intense use of resources and time to make a competition of it. yes - competition does push people to new heights, but I really value my time, and
it seems to me a huge waste to be measuring shavings in microns and giving out medals or what not. it's not the skill that I was referring too - but what they are making of it.
teaching it to a room full of woodworkers would be much more of a good use IMO.
I'm sure I don't understand the whole thing, but it struck me as insane in the moment. if I think about it there are plenty of everyday things that are just stupid. but I don't expect you to understand the background from which I am looking at things.

[Jeff Heath]

Amen, brother.

No amens, but I'll triple that thought. I don't get the point, but if they're having fun, then so be it.

Jeff

[Joel Moskowitz]

I'm curious,
something I don't understand.

Wood is basically cells of wood all arranged. practically this means that if you slice off a shaving you get a cross section of cell walls and a lot of air.
Now supposing you take a really fine shaving and then put a thickness gauge on it to measure the shaving, won't the vertical walls of the cell, which are even in a fine shaving, thinner than they are tall, fall over? or at least buckle a lot?
So are those contest folks measuring the thickness of the shaving, or at some point of thinness what you actually are measuring is the thickness of a compressed cell wall or a cell wall on its side?
Certainly - if they are it would explain why the shavings while transparent aren't so much more transparent than a very thin, shaving in the sub thou of an inch world.

[Charlie Stanford]

No amens, but I'll triple that thought. I don't get the point, but if they're having fun, then so be it.

Jeff

Well, they are smiling so it can't all be bad.

[Charlie Stanford]

Super. Let's hear more. Japanese craftsmen building a traditional Japanese home in the Northeastern U.S. using traditional Japanese architecture and hand craftsmanship. Surely, there must be a newspaper or magazine article about this place.

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm curious,
something I don't understand.

Wood is basically cells of wood all arranged. practically this means that if you slice off a shaving you get a cross section of cell walls and a lot of air.
Now supposing you take a really fine shaving and then put a thickness gauge on it to measure the shaving, won't the vertical walls of the cell, which are even in a fine shaving, thinner than they are tall, fall over? or at least buckle a lot?
So are those contest folks measuring the thickness of the shaving, or at some point of thinness what you actually are measuring is the thickness of a compressed cell wall or a cell wall on its side?
Certainly - if they are it would explain why the shavings while transparent aren't so much more transparent than a very thin, shaving in the sub thou of an inch world.

Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

[David Weaver]

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I will now "If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to 'dis' something you don't fully understand."

I am not "dising" the skill, I have the outmost respect and appreciation for the Japanese ways, patience and dedication - and you can ask my wife.
I was judging the intense use of resources and time to make a competition of it. yes - competition does push people to new heights, but I really value my time, and
it seems to me a huge waste to be measuring shavings in microns and giving out medals or what not. it's not the skill that I was referring too - but what they are making of it.
teaching it to a room full of woodworkers would be much more of a good use IMO.
I'm sure I don't understand the whole thing, but it struck me as insane in the moment. if I think about it there are plenty of everyday things that are just stupid. but I don't expect you to understand the background from which I am looking at things.

I'm sure there is no leisure activity you take part in that wastes even a second. Extra minute at a cafe more than it takes to eat the food and pay the bill, whatever. You still don't get it.

[Kees Heiden]

Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

This comes back to my question early in this thread. How thick is a woodcell? A bit of searching makes me blieve 20 micro is a rather typical cell diameter, so they are planing les then a woocell. So you have to look at the woodcell walls, which meassure more in the 1 micro range. Sure, I am just googling a round a bit, but it does make me wonder, what the heck are these super thin shavings? Layers of wood cell walls I guess with not much air anymore.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm sure there is no leisure activity you take part in that wastes even a second. Extra minute at a cafe more than it takes to eat the food and pay the bill, whatever. You still don't get it.

That's low. I waste a ton of my time - like anyone. and enjoying a coffee is not a waste in my book, so please don't be childish. this competition
struck me as an extreme. maybe I don't see in it the things that give it the point, I already said that, which would make my initial observation mute.
In any case I'm happy to discus it but not in the in clinical disrespectful way these responses have been going.

[Kees Heiden]

Matthew,

For me, I just see the fun in these things. For example, my other passion is rockclimbing. I am not terribly good at it, but boy, it's so much fun. And to be honest, if there ever was a list of senseless activities, then rockclimbing would score pretty high. I am climbing on a recreational level, but lots of people are really pushing the limits of rockclimbing. I can look at it with awe. There are some guys and galls training at my local climbing wall and allthough they take it very seriously, they also have a lot of fun. I guess it is also a group thing. It's always nice to belong to a group and trying to excell within that group in one way or anaother. That's just normal social behaviour.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Kees, I agree with everything you've said 100%. but for some reason the planing competition strikes me as something different. to me to excel in woodworking
doesn't mean taking 0.X micron shavings. maybe I just don't understand enough to get it, but in all truth I can't imagine any of that super finesse matters. they obviously
enjoy it, at least thats 1 reason to do it. but I'm allowed to think it's pointless. I'd like to hear why this make total sense. do you spend 5 hours setting up your planes to do that everytime you want a fine "tearout" free shaving? or do you just sharpen and set it fine?

[Kees Heiden]

In normal work I guess Japanese carpenters make normal smoothing shavings in the 1 to 2 tau range. Just like westerners. But this is a competition. It's sport. So you try anything to beat the other guy, within the rules of course. If it takes 5 hours to set the plane, so be it. It's totaly serious in itself but pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Of course.

[Wilbur Pan]

This comes back to my question early in this thread. How thick is a woodcell? A bit of searching makes me blieve 20 micro is a rather typical cell diameter, so they are planing les then a woocell. So you have to look at the woodcell walls, which meassure more in the 1 micro range. Sure, I am just googling a round a bit, but it does make me wonder, what the heck are these super thin shavings? Layers of wood cell walls I guess with not much air anymore.

Pretty much. Thin sheets of various polysaccharides.

The numbers that you have for the thickness of a plant cell and the cell wall are pretty good. The exact number depends on the species, especially for the diameter of the cell. Plant cells are almost never spherical, so it also depends on which way you are measuring the cell.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

I think i get it. Sorry for the confusion. My problem was that I was thinking that a micron is smaller than it is.
9µ = 0.00035433in which is thin and impressive at that length but not something I can't envision.

[david charlesworth]

Joel,

I too spent some considerable time working out what 9 microns is in English money. 0.4 of a thousandth of an inch is pretty impressive, but I hope we are all familiar with a 1 thou" shaving?

Using English Sycamore and a tuned up Stanley 5 1/2, I reckon I can get 0.6 of a thou.

best wishes,
David