Plane typing - mystery plane, or just my own confusion?

[daniel lane]

Hi, all -

I'm cleaning up a 5C to add to the arsenal, which I thought was a Type 11, but I decided to verify that and now I know it's not an 11, but I can't tell if it's an 8 or a 9. It's a Bailey #5C, shown below:
5C pic 1.jpg
According to the identification page I'm using, the 2 patent dates behind the frog and the straight frog rib make this a type 9. However, the lateral adjustment lever has a single date on it:
5C pic 3.jpg
According to the same page, that makes this a type 8 lateral lever. I know it can't be a type 10, since the frog rib isn't arched, and I don't think it's an 8, since the page describes the frogs/receivers as "flat with 2 grooves" and this one is has a rib, but no adjustment screw. Plus, a type 8 should have a "B" foundry mark behind the frog, and this one doesn't. (There's a "B" on the back of the lever cap, though, which is otherwise unmarked and has rounded edges.) My confusion, basically, is that everything screams this is a type 9, but there's a date on the lateral adjustment lever, and according to that page, the 9s had no date on the lever. What am I missing?

To further confuse things, the iron is stamped at the top with, "STANLEY" and "PAT. APL 19 92" and the cap iron is stamped with "L.BAILEY'S PATENT DEC.24.1867"


daniel

[Sam Takeuchi]

That just makes it at the very end of type 8 or very early type 9. That's all. They didn't throw away parts inventory just because new specs come into effect and it's not uncommon to find planes with mixed parts. If you keep buying vintage planes in the future, you'll probably come across one of those again. Type study is not definite and this 'type' went through a period of transition until inventory matched up to the new spec.

[daniel lane]

Okay, found another site that has more detailed information. According to this site, and examining the plane parts, I have:

• Rosewood tote/knob - Type 1-16
• Plain base knob - Type 6-11
• Depth adjustment nut (left thread, 1" OD, parallel knurling) - Type 7-11
• Cutting iron (circular hole @ bottom, "STANLEY" "PAT. AP'L 19, 92") - Type 7-9
• Cap iron ("L. BAILEY'S" "PATENT"...) - Type 1-7
• Cap iron screw (knurled) - Type 8+
• Lateral adjustment lever ("7-24-88" "STANLEY", two-piece with disc and inserted thumb flag) - Type 8
• Lever cap (no logo, keyhole shaped, recessed back, rounded edges, lever cam 1-3/32") - Type 3-11
• Frog (flat, chamfered screws, arched back, no adjustment screw) - Type 7-9
• Frog receiver (smaller/raised bearing surface, rib to mouth) - Type 9
• Casting marks ("Bailey" on toe, in front of knob) - Type 9-14
• Casting marks ("B" on frog, lever cap, or bed) - Type 8
• Casting marks ("MAR-25-02" "AUG-19-02" behind frog) - Type 9

This seems to indicate a Frankenplane, with a type 9 body, a type 7 iron, a type 8 cap iron screw, and a type 8 adjustment lever? Now I'm truly baffled, as it seems from descriptions you can't swap parts between some of these types...

More reading to do.....



daniel

[daniel lane]

That just makes it at the very end of type 8 or very early type 9. That's all. They didn't throw away parts inventory just became new specs come into effect and it's not uncommon to find planes with mixed parts. If you keep buying vintage planes in the future, you'll probably come across one or those again. Type study is not definite and this 'type' went through a period of transition until inventory matched up to the new spec.

Sam, this make a lot of sense. You typed this while I was inventorying parts in my next reply, I think my brain was expecting 'all-or-nothing' differences. I'm going to assume very early type 9, since the bed castings are so clearly different. Thanks!


daniel

[Charlie Stanford]

Will it plane wood?

[Mark Dorman]

Will it plane wood?

I used to be curious of plane type; but now feel if it looks like a good user and it planes wood it's the right type.

[Jim Koepke]

The base and frog are what most determines the "type" of the Stanley/Bailey line of planes. As Sam mentioned, parts were not tossed just because of changes.

The early type 9 did not have as tall of a rib for the frog guide. They also often have the remaining lateral levers from earlier production.

The biggest oddity for yours is the chip breaker. Most likely the original owner had an earlier #4 and switched around the chip breakers while sharpening one day or switched the blade and chip breaker when the blade went dull and they didn't want to stop to sharpen.

The real question is how well does it do its job? Nothing else really matters.

Stanley didn't know people were going to make this much fuss about when they made changes to their plane line and who made their components. The type studies were focused around one of the most popular planes, a #4 if my memory is working. Since this was the most common seller the theory is that the changes occurred more consistently. Though with the #4s and #5s being the most popular, they were the ones that would most likely be shipped from the factory with crossover type parts.

Another consideration is the type studies of the Stanley planes have missed a few things. One of my planes did not fit into the original type studies. It is the model where the depth adjuster changed from right hand threads to left hand threads. There were not as many of these and were missed in the original study. Since it would mess up the order of things, it is considered a type 6a. The difference between an early type 9 and a later type 9 seems significant to me as the parts are not fully interchangeable. My guess is the type 10 planes were made with castings for the type 9s and were used up until the new castings with the third patent date came into stock and became type 11s.

To quote Edward Murrow, "anyone who isn't totally confused just doesn't understand the situation."

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

For a while, the phrase "management model" was in vogue among business school types. I was in human resources, one of the messier regions of management, and used to point out that it was a very accurate phrase, because any attempt to model an organization is going to be a simplified version of the reality, just as a model of a 1939 Henway Light Four is way simpler than the real thing in all its complexity. Still, like a management model, the type studies give us a pattern that we can lay over a particular plane, and find its likely age, with the usual caveats about later replacement parts.

[daniel lane]

Bill's hit it on the head - I wanted to determine the age of the plane (there's something fun about explaining to my son that "this plane is 111 years old, and still an excellent tool"). As for planing wood, can't say yet (haven't tried with it), but I'm sure it'll do fine. The sole is nice and flat, but the tote's broken, so I'm waiting for the replacement to show up before testing it out. Also, I need to re-grind and sharpen the iron (it's not been well treated over the years), and it needs just a little TLC to be ready to go.

Also, I think the vast majority of my confusion came about because the lateral adjustment lever doesn't look like something that's easily replaced, and it's clearly not a 'type 9' from the studies. Another example of how they used up parts at the transition between types. I learn something new every day...


daniel

[Dave Beauchesne]

Daniel:

I collect tools, and Stanley planes to some degree - I don't collect for collectors sake - just - will it make a nice user.

Frankenplanes are verrrry common - from what I have seen anyway - and given the age of the more desireable ones - no wonder.

That being said, and all the great input earlier in the thread, what Charlie said is the most important thing - IF you want to plane wood
with the thing.

Of course, finding a crisp 100 year old plane with a near full length blade and all the proper parts would be nice every time, but
don't expect it and don't let it ruin your day or drive you nuts. But, it is nice to know your stuff and learn if what you are holding
is original, or at least close. Sorry to ramble on - keep up the good work and keep learning. I know I do every time I log onto SMC.

Dave B

[daniel lane]

It's not rambling, Dave, and I appreciate your perspective. I have pretty close to zero interest in 'officially' collecting tools (although I certainly have more than I need and have plans to...accumulate...more), but where I can buy a good vintage tool, I love to find out as much about it as possible.

I don't get a lot of 'project time' in the shop these days (although lately, LOML has been doing a lot to help me find that time), but where I can steal a couple of minutes, I like to spend time in my shop holding tools, examining them, and trying to imagine their lives before they found me. This particular plane came to me with a broken tote, and lots of chips in the japanning on the toe and heel. The sole is nice and flat, though, and the blade and and cap iron don't 'match'. I can imagine my great grandfather bought this plane new and carried it around a lot, loose in his tool box; he kept it in excellent user condition and once swapped irons with another plane, like Jim suggested above, since he was too busy to sharpen at the moment.

Giving these planes some TLC before putting them back to use, I feel sometimes like the guy that runs a farm for old race horses, giving them a second - albeit slower - chance at life. Then I realize I've gotten too sentimental and work on selecting the next project to work on, rather than just fondling tools in the workshop.


daniel

[Jim Koepke]

Also, I need to re-grind and sharpen the iron (it's not been well treated over the years), and it needs just a little TLC to be ready to go.

If the iron is too far gone, the Buck Brothers labeled 2" plane blade for $3 at Home Depot is a pretty decent blade. Then if you do go the premium blade route later you have a cheap blade to turn into a scrub plane blade.

jtk

[daniel lane]

If the iron is too far gone, the Buck Brothers labeled 2" plane blade for $3 at Home Depot is a pretty decent blade. Then if you do go the premium blade route later you have a cheap blade to turn into a scrub plane blade.

jtk

Jim,

You've touched on something I've been thinking about, especially with this 5. The blade will likely survive clean-up and resharpening, but I'd like to get some additional blades to sharpen to various radii/etc. for "drop in" replacements. In order to have this, I'd need additional cap irons, screws, etc. Any good places to find these (at reasonable prices)? Also, where does one find wallets to store spares? Is there a source, or do most people make their own?


daniel

[David Weaver]

If the iron is too far gone, the Buck Brothers labeled 2" plane blade for $3 at Home Depot is a pretty decent blade. Then if you do go the premium blade route later you have a cheap blade to turn into a scrub plane blade.

jtk

I can't see the iron, but I vote for this approach, too, if it's in bad shape. Those $3 irons are very nice for the price.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

You've touched on something I've been thinking about, especially with this 5. The blade will likely survive clean-up and resharpening, but I'd like to get some additional blades to sharpen to various radii/etc. for "drop in" replacements. In order to have this, I'd need additional cap irons, screws, etc. Any good places to find these (at reasonable prices)? Also, where does one find wallets to store spares? Is there a source, or do most people make their own?


daniel

Here is an inexpensive source for some Stanley parts:

http://www.stanleytoolparts.com/beplcu.html

This web site changes often, so if you want to book mark it > http://www.stanleytoolparts.com < may be your best bet.

Also just noticed they have a crazy price for a blade and cap iron. It could be a typo.

At first read my thought about the wallets was seen as wallets of cash.

My blade storage for bench planes is a wooden box. It has a tray in the top to hold a few auger bits. Mine is made of pine which is fairly nonreactive with steel. Some woods may have reactions with steel depending on your humidity.

jtk