Full Spectrum Lasers

[Paul Phillips]

As far as service, some of the brand name American units have great service.
However, it comes at $150 an hour and parts costs will buckle your knees.Dennis

Dennis, (or anyone) correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not sure where you are getting your info about US lasers from, but I only know of one that charges for support, (there may be others?) but if you read through the forum you will find many who have bought Universal or Epilog that as far as I am aware, do not have to pay for basic tech support, in fact just the opposite, they seem to be willing to go above and beyond the call of duty to help even those who have bought an old used machine for no cost, I've never had to pay any kind of fee, I call the Mfg, they help me diagnose the problem and they overnight the part I need, for the cost of the part.

people that pay $20,000 for a laser think that their $2,000 a year service plan is a bargain.
Dennis

I have never had to pay this for my Universal. I just don't want others seeing this thread and thinking that US made=$150 hr/$2000 yr support.

However, six FSEs costing the same as one American RF laser will probably do more work for the dollars spent.Dennis

Perhaps given enough skill and time to re-engineer the machines with workable parts it could be done although Rodney is the only one I've seen on here that has been successful doing this, and that with a different Mfg.
I hope this doesn't come across as angry, I'm just passionate about what I do. I'm glad you had a good experience with yours but as you said its was more of a hobby, for those of us who depend upon it to make a living every day, it's worth the extra cost and peace of mind. I hope you find the next one even more satisfying.
Paul

[Dennis Rech]

Dennis, (or anyone) correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not sure where you are getting your info about US lasers from, but I only know of one that charges for support, (there may be others?) but if you read through the forum you will find many who have bought Universal or Epilog that as far as I am aware, do not have to pay for basic tech support, in fact just the opposite, they seem to be willing to go above and beyond the call of duty to help even those who have bought an old used machine for no cost, I've never had to pay any kind of fee, I call the Mfg, they help me diagnose the problem and they overnight the part I need, for the cost of the part.

I have never had to pay this for my Universal. I just don't want others seeing this thread and thinking that US made=$150 hr/$2000 yr support.

Perhaps given enough skill and time to re-engineer the machines with workable parts it could be done although Rodney is the only one I've seen on here that has been successful doing this, and that with a different Mfg.
I hope this doesn't come across as angry, I'm just passionate about what I do. I'm glad you had a good experience with yours but as you said its was more of a hobby, for those of us who depend upon it to make a living every day, it's worth the extra cost and peace of mind. I hope you find the next one even more satisfying.
Paul

Hi Paul,
This thread started with Jeffery's question, " I'm looking for a laser to get into this with as a hobby/small business and someone suggested Full Spectrum Lasers 40w hobby laser. I'm wondering, does anyone have experience with these or other FS Lasers? Would this a good route to take or something like this be very limiting? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!"
So please read the answer in the light of his question.

If he had asked, I have a bunch of $10,000 guitar engravings to do, should I buy a FSE 40 watt Hobby?"
I would have answered, "Heavens no, pay Dan Hintz to do it. He has a laser big enough to fit a guitar in it and if anything goes wrong with the engraving, he will buy you a brand new guitar."
Right Dan?

For what it is worth, I have only had the FSE line glitches with my old XP Pro computer. FSE says that you should have a newer operating system to guarantee compatibility with the latest FSE software.
I never have had any problems at all when running the laser on my Windows 7 laptop.

If great service means that the sales rep answers the phone and tells you which part to buy from him, FSE also has great service.
They answer the phone and will gladly sell you parts.
With a smile.
They just don't make free house calls.
They do give free software upgrades though.

3 or 4 years ago, when I first started looking or a laser, I found several used ones, usually needing some sort of unknown work with a owner saying that they just did not want to put any more money into the thing.
So I would call the various respective manufacture's reps in Seattle, or Portland or San Francisco and ask how much would it cost to have a tech come out and diagnose the machine and provide a quote to fix it.
The answer would usually be about $150/hour including travel time, with a three hour minimum and maybe hotel and airline expenses.
They would always add, "If its the tube, expect at least $5000 and that after it was fixed and checked out, that I could purchase an extended one year warranty for about $2000.
So, that's where those numbers come from.
Seems like someone on this board was complaining with vigor that Epilog (?) wanted $500 to replace a 4 line LCD.
With a FSE, $500 on Ebay will buy a new laser tube, power supply, three new stepper motors and 2 belts with enough left over for a 4x4 foot piece of acrylic (which will have to be cut down to 9"x14" to work on a FSE.)

I now have about 300 hours on mine, so that pretty much means that tube replacement costs will be well under a dollar per hour.
The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.
Likely, the life of the tube is equal to the life of the water pump.
We will see.

So is it a good deal for a hobbyist/home business user?
It has been for me.

Dennis

[Mike Null]

Caveat emptor.

[Scott Shepherd]

I now have about 300 hours on mine, so that pretty much means that tube replacement costs will be well under a dollar per hour.
The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.
Likely, the life of the tube is equal to the life of the water pump.
We will see.

While we're setting the record straight, the replacement tube for a 45W Universal is about $1200. I have a chart that shows their average life span and where they die. The average is 6-7 years before they drop off in power. So $1,200 for 6 years. I'll take that any day of the week. And that's not running 300 hours a year, that's easily running it 1000 hours a year of actual burn time.

Also, I just had a call from Trotec on Friday and they said "I'm from Trotec and I'm in the area and thought I'd stop by and look at your laser to see that everything was working okay." He did. Cost- $0.

[Mike Null]

For what it's worth, my Trotec is nearing 7 years old and has over 7000 hours on the original tube and nothing else has been replaced either. In other words zero down time in 7 years. In my opinion that's how you make money.

(the 7000 hours is very conservative figuring 20 hours per week--I run it more than that)

[Rodne Gold]

Caveat emptor.

+1+1+1+1+1+1

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Dennis,
thanks for explaining the prices, now I understand better and yes, I can see how they would want to pay $150 hr to come to you and diagnose a problem, and that would be daunting if you had no idea what the problem was, I pay that for my MultiCam CNC tech's, I just didn't want someone to think that you would have to pay that for phone support, and it's been my experience that in most cases they can diagnose the problem over the phone and walk you through doing the repair yourself (for the cost of parts). I did have Mike McKenzie stop by to help replace a belt once but I think he said he was already going to be in the area and didn't charge me for labor if I remember right.
Steve, that's not a bad lifespan when you think about it, hope mine last at least that long. My tubes have "relaxed" from 152 watts to 137 last time I tested. :-(
Paul

[John J Wang]

Not to mention the ones that were removed due to them being attached to posts by the owner who has had his account deleted twice... it's a shame they were removed rather than locked as you got a real sense of his attitude towards customers (and this forum, in particular).

Wow, Deja Vu. A few years back there was a shouting matching in a machining forum involving a guy henry, why he should access to other people's 5 axis machine for pennies, out sourcing to china, and his phd. I remembered because one the machinist casually mentioned that he also has a phd in biochem or something in science field. that was a good one. Internet flame wars is fairly common, but what henry did showed his astute business nature. Not only did he get the moderator to delete his posts which were fairly offensive to the domestic manufacturers, but he also emailed people involved to request that they also delete their posts as well.

Fast forward a few years and again, that astute business sense is evident in the american flag graphic proudly draping over chinese made machines along with a smart marketing campaign.

To be fair, people do change, but in the mean time I'll be saving my pennies for a ULS or Epilog.

[Jarami Reid]

good point Wes

[Keith Outten]

http://www.thunderlaser.com/

Thunder Laser is a sponsor of SawMill Creek. I would think that it might be an advantage dealing with a company that is close to this Community provided they have a machine that fits your requirements.
.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Dennis,

The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.

What tube rating is that for? 40 watt or a 60 watt?

Moving water is not quite the whole issue, it also needs to have no large cavities or airlocks that still allow water to flow but also permit hot spots to form. These days 1,000 hour tube life is pretty poor, EFR F2 series will run to 4,000 - 5,000 hours and the ZX series will go to 12,000 or so before failing. My last 80 watt EFR F2 had run 4,800 hours and was producing 71 watts at the time it was swapped out.
Tube life depends a LOT on how it is driven, how stable the current is and what the electrode / gas purity is like as well as the heat / cooling cycles it is expected to put up with.

RF units are higher quality when compared to Chinese glassbody units but when compared to tubes like the GSI SLC series they tend to come in a far rated second. Comparing a $200 Chinese Glass 40 watt to a $5,000 Synrad 35 watt is like comparing a $5,000 Synrad to my $25,000 SLC.

Lasers are an exact science, some of the junkpiles they get fitted into........aren't.

cheers

Dave

[Chris Fulton]

I went through the process of deciding what to by for my needs and just posted a review that details my experience. There are a lot of companies out there, but personally I took Full Spectrum off my list pretty early in the decision process. They seemed to have some neat machines and a nice video on Kick Starter but way too many bad reviews. When you pick a machine it's like picking a mate - you're stuck with their service (or lack of) for the life of the machine.

I chose Boss Lasers for my purchase and their support BEFORE the sale was one thing that sold me. I'd say call up the companies you are interested in and talk to them. That will give you an idea of what to expect.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I went through the process of deciding what to by for my needs and just posted a review that details my experience. There are a lot of companies out there, but personally I took Full Spectrum off my list pretty early in the decision process. They seemed to have some neat machines and a nice video on Kick Starter but way too many bad reviews. When you pick a machine it's like picking a mate - you're stuck with their service (or lack of) for the life of the machine.

I chose Boss Lasers for my purchase and their support BEFORE the sale was one thing that sold me. I'd say call up the companies you are interested in and talk to them. That will give you an idea of what to expect.

I don't think pre-sale support necessarily has anything to do with post-sale support. The reality is that time spent before the sale is how they justify their profit. They want your money and are willing to work for it. Once they have it, things change in many situations. Now any time they spend helping you is theoretically time they are donating to you. As a result, they are less and less likely to give you excellent support.

When you break things down, if you're selling an item that cost you $1000 for $1500, how many hours of support can you really afford to give? That's why I never understood why anyone would want to sell these $1000 junk lasers. The profit margin isn't high enough to validate the bad publicity and hours spent trying to help your customers.

[Jerome Stanek]

I don't think pre-sale support necessarily has anything to do with post-sale support. The reality is that time spent before the sale is how they justify their profit. They want your money and are willing to work for it. Once they have it, things change in many situations. Now any time they spend helping you is theoretically time they are donating to you. As a result, they are less and less likely to give you excellent support.

When you break things down, if you're selling an item that cost you $1000 for $1500, how many hours of support can you really afford to give? That's why I never understood why anyone would want to sell these $1000 junk lasers. The profit margin isn't high enough to validate the bad publicity and hours spent trying to help your customers.

FSL gets those cheap lasers for about $500 and sell them from $1850 plus shipping and then you have to buy the pump and air compressor according to their web site. That is a nice mark up for them. If you want the Retina engrave you will need to spend another $500

[Mike Null]

Pre-sale support??? That's a new one on me. I have always referred to that as a sales pitch. That some are more competent than others does not alter the fact.

Laser sales people, like other commission salespeople are money motivated. Their support quickly disappears once the sale is completed. Are there exceptions? Yes, very few.