Toothing your bench?

[Zach Callum]

I like Chris. He is like an earnest woodworking buddy who is willing to share what he has figured out recently. His explorations are usually empirical. He is sincerely trying to impart his findings. Now, since its a journey over time, he may later learn things that contradict what he thought he knew last year or whatever. But this is a fact of life. Even the most experienced and expert among us are always learning new things. No woodworker is hatched knowing the best answer to everything for all time.

I think Chris is reasonably humble. Like any personality, his fan base has awarded him a mantle; he doesn't seem to actively be trying to claim it. Many folks seem to reflexively try to pull down people who others admire. Oh well.

I think that there is a little bit of that going on.

No one has brought up this, W Partick Edwards, who is mentioned as being the inspiration for the toothing experiment. What is the big deal? I don't think that any of you have tried it, maybe its not such a bad idea.

[Kees Heiden]

Without veneering, it's out. (might make a neat desk ornament at work. You could yank peoples' chains and call it a 19th century julienne machine - or zester if it's too fine for that).

So it looks like I'll have to try veneering sometime.
Or sell the plane.

Maybe the julienne idea isn't so bad afterall.

[Prashun Patel]

"Some coarse sandpaper scuffing"...

Please, no profanity....

[george wilson]

Jach,I am a life long professional craftsman.73 in a few days. 39 year master craftsman in Williamsburg. Instrument maker since 1954. Teacher up to college level. I've never seen any other professional tooth his bench. But,don't take my word for it. I can assure you,sometimes guys try to denigrate me too,but I stand behind my work(that way I can dodge the tomatoes,cabbage,etc.!)

[Alice Frampton]

Any other, and this time usefull, purposes for my toothing plane?
I am not really into veneering, so that one is out.

An article on making your own toothing plane in The Woodworker magazine, October 1927 also suggests "resinous and oily woods similar to rosewood and padouk do not take kindly to glue unless they have their surfaces toothed". Oh, and then goes on "and even a bench top which is toothed diagonally with the grain will prevent wood which is being planed from slipping about the bench."

So, um, yeah. Darn these magazine folks and their new-fangled ideas, as my great granddaddy always used to say...

Cheers, Alf

[Chris Fournier]

Any other, and this time usefull, purposes for my toothing plane?
I am not really into veneering, so that one is out. As a scrubplane? I don't know, this one has very fine teeth, it doesn't scrub very well.

Figured wood or gnarly grain can get pretty demanding and a toothed blade can help you get to a nice surface while minimizing teraout. I have tootehd blades for my bench planes for just such situations.

[george wilson]

But,Alice,a study done by the U.S. government back in the 80's,complete with lab testing, and featured in FWW magazine stated that smooth surfaces adhere better when glued than toothed surfaces. so,we have 2 contradicting articles. And,I still haven't seen a pro tooth his bench. As mentioned above,nothing new under the Sun. Just those who dig it up and publish it (as new stuff?) make it seem that way. The same thing happened with chip breakers a while back.

Know anything about the qualifications of the 1927 author? The English might have some different ways of doing things. Old Mr. Simms,the English furniture conservator in the 70's in Williamsburg,screwed his oil stones down to a cabinet. I know no one else who was so adamant about doing this. Roy had his tool chest on his show.

Personally,I am a bit old fashioned,and would prefer to tooth when veneering,myself,but that's just me,and I don't apply it to benches for reasons I already stated. Other stuff grabs better anyway,when laid on the bench,and doesn't hold trash to scar the wood.

[David Weaver]

George, you're framing this stones thing the wrong way. If you just said you screwed your stones to the bench, took a couple pictures of them and said you found it in an old text, maybe several hundred people would do it and gush about how well they work when screwed to the top of a bench

[Paul Saffold]

If the U.S. Government said it, well how can anyone doubt it? End of discussion. Might as well lock this thread and move on to other ineffectual, eh I mean intellectual diversions.

[george wilson]

The study was complete with the results of lab testing,though I cannot disagree with your doubt about the government! it does seem counter intuitive that a smooth wood surface would make a stronger joint than a toothed one,but many things are counter intuitive.

Otherwise,I suppose you'll just have to have faith in an unidentified woodworker who wrote an article back in the 20's. I seem to have read a few recent articles in woodworking magazines that were full of misinformation. Nothing new under the Sun about that,either.

[Tom Vanzant]

Chris F.
I have seen the same workbench with wagon vise project covered in the same WW magazine over the years. The first had a laminated HW top and square steel dogs. The second used a built-up plywood top and 3/4" brass dogs. The third had a built-up MDF top and wooden dowels + square cap dogs. I cancelled my subscription before they published another version.

[David Weaver]

The fallacy of glue surfaces needing to be scuffed probably has to do with the idea that we always think things work as we see and feel them. The bonding is going on at a very local level, and we assume that there needs to be some "tooth" for it to grab, when in fact it's probably grabbing the tooth on a planed smooth surface. The tooth is still there, it's just not evident enough for us to see it.

I have been planing all of my joints flush, near invisible with hand planes for years so that I can put them together without having to clamp the whizz out of them and i haven't yet had one fail.

It's sort of like the OWT of a knife needing to have a toothed edge to cut meat well, that still goes around "don't polish the edge, or it won't have the tooth to cut meat". But when you look at a fish cleaning operation or butchers, they always have very sharp knives or in the case of a lot of butchers, maintenance with a polished steel.

[John Coloccia]

re: toothing wood for glue
I think the right answer is that is depends on the glue and what you're gluing. As far as I know, regular wood glue (Titebond, for example) and hide glue do better with smooth surfaces. Epoxy, and I'd guess glues like urea formaldehyde, have very low cohesion and depend on a rough surface and mechanical bonding. Hide glue has very high adhesion...so high that if you put it on a piece of glass and let it dry, it can crack the glass as it shrinks.

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.

[Zach Callum]

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.[/QUOTE]


That does make sense.

[Brett Robson]

I don't see what all the flap is about. While I wouldn't take a toothing plane to my new bench, as probably most of us here wouldn't, I don't see it as a problem or an ill-conceived idea for those with a well worn bench or someone who is interested in working with period techniques. As Patrick E. explained in his video, the idea is the old French way of treating the benchtop. If Mr. Roubo and the like used it, it probably worked out all right.

If you try it and it works for you given what you build, go for it. If not, then don't. No one's opinion here or in the the myriad blogs and magazines speaks the gospel truth in woodworking. Everything is subjective and there's no one correct way to do most anything.