Help Please, Waterlox confusion?

[Charlie Ross]

I bought a quart of (Waterlox Original sealer/finisher) forfinishing a walnut chest I built. When I purchased it I had intended to use itas a rubbing finish, but the more I lookinto it, I’m not sure now if Waterlox is a hand rubbing finish or a brush on?Some recommend to let it cure for a week or better before rubbing. For handfinishes in the past I’ve mostly used my own mixture of tongue, linseed,varnish and some mineral spirits; Multiple coats keeping it soaked for about anhour and rubbing it down. My plan was to use the Waterlox the same way, but nowI’m not sure? Thanks

[Scott Holmes]

There are 3 different products here; each with their own application technique.

Waterlox OriginalSealer/finsih is a wiping varnish. e.g. Varnish that has been thinned ~50% with mineral spirits.
Application - wipe it on like the kid wipes the table at the burger joint and let it dry... 2'x5' table top should take no more than 2 minutes. Final result is a varnish finish. 3-4 wipe-on coats equals one properly brushed or sprayed coat. Film forming finish, very durable.

Oil finish (pure oil) - flood surface allow it to soak in for 15-20 mins or sand it in with wet/dry sandpaper then wipe it dry. let it dry overnight. Repeat. Sanding slurry will help fill the grain on woods that need to be filled.

Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) will need about 24 hours to cure. Pure Tung oil will need 7 days. Neither will protect the wood from liquid water or water vapor... Neither can produce a hard film finish. Neither are hard when cured... to prove this; allow a thin layer of either oil to dry on a piece of glass then see how hard it dries.

Oil varnish blend - aka Danish oil e.g. Watco (which usually has a varnish stain added to make the different "colors"). Typically equal parts of BLO, varnish and mineral spirits... Store brands tend to have more mineral spirits than oil or varnish. FYI mineral spirits evaporates... Mixing tung oil instaad of BLO is fine, however the mix will dry slower and there is very little advantage to tung oil ($$$$) over BLO ($). Possible exception is that TO doesn't darken as much as BLO. The varnish you use may negate this advantage since most varnishes are made with linseed oil. Waterlox (tung oil) and Pratt & Lambert #38 (soya oil) are a couple of exceptions.

Application - flood surface allow it to soak in for 15-20 mins or sand it in with wet/dry sandpaper then wipe it dry. let it dry overnight. Repeat. Sanding slurry will help fill the grain on woods that need to be filled. This can produce a more durable finish than pure oil and slightly more shine than pure oils.

[Prashun Patel]

Charlie-
To put a finer point on Scott's post: most wiping varnishes like Waterlox OSF are not intended to be rubbed in. Rubbing "in" a finish means putting a little on and rubbing it on until it stops soaking in, and then wiping off the excess - completely. It is possible to do that with wiping varnishes like Waterlox, but you have to be QUICK - or you have to work in very small areas with only a small amount of varnish; in fact it's best to just moisten your rag with it, and rub until you develop a sheen and then rub until it's gone- then move on to the next area. This is IMHO a painful way to apply Waterlox. If your desire is for an in-the-wood finish, I have better results adding about 10-25% BLO to the Waterlox and using it like a conventional OV or oil finish: apply liberally; let soak; wipe completely off. Repeat in 8 hours. The BLO will prevent the varnish from setting up so quickly.

You can brush Waterlox too. You will get great results - but this will look like a conventional, film-building varnish.

The *easiest* way to apply pure Waterlox (IMHO) is to apply it as a very thin film: Sand up to 400. Paint on the first coat with a foam brush, and keep applying to the 'soaky' parts. Let sit for 10 mins and lightly wipe everything, just to remove puddling and to leave a thin slick surface. This will completely absorb over the next couple hours. 8 hours later.: apply a second coat and lightly wetsand with 400g for 5 mins. Wipe everything completely off. 8 hours later, wipe on a very thin film. Don't over wipe; apply like Scott says: wipe in gentle circles or figure 8's to leave a slick surface; avoid over wiping. The bubbles will disappear. Do this twice (8hrs dry between). Then gently wetsand with 600g lubed with a little MS. Wipe that completely off and let dry thoroughly (Waterlox does not IMHO like MS). Then wipe on two more very thin coats.

Think thin, and don't overwipe...

[Scott Holmes]

Wiping dry a wipe-on varnish is a waste of material. If you are leaving shiny wet spots when appling a wipe-on varnish you are leaving to much varnish.

Prashun... I believe you have miss quoted me... "Don't over wipe; apply like Scott says: wipe in gentle circles or figure 8's to leave a slick surface;" I don't recall every saying that.

I say wipe-on varnish like the kid wipes the table, the surface should be damp not slick. If there are shiney spots, puddles or rag marks from wiping you are appling it too heavy. 2 minutes to do a dining table top...

Also adding BLO to Waterlox, competely changes the finish and the process to apply it.

I don't recommend sanding between coats of wipe-on varnish I wipe on 3 coats per "set" reappling as so as the previous coat is dry to the touch. ~ 1 hour with Waterlox. I will sand lghtly between "sets" when needed but most often I don't sand until after the 2nd or 3rd "set".

[Howard Acheson]

When it's all said and done, Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish is a thinned varnish. It's intended to be applied to virgin wood as the first coat. Then Either Waterlox Original gloss or satin is applied for subsequent coats. The Sealer/Finish is thinned to promote faster and deeper penetration while the Gloss and the Satin are full strength to make them build faster.

The sealer/finish can be used as either a brush on or a wipe on finish without further thinning. The sealer/finish can also be brushed or wiped on in multiple coats producing a satin finish. It is not intended to be applied and then wiped like an oil/varnish finish. It's applied and then let dry whether applied by brush or using a wipe-on technique.

I don't know what you mean by "rubbing out". To me that is a technique of finishing the finish after the finish has fully cured for 3-4 weeks. It's not a finish application process. To most experienced finishers it means sanding the fully cured finish with a fine 600 then 1200 grip paper followed by rubbing out with a pumice and/or rottenstone to produce a smooth, high gloss finish. Most finisher use automotive polishing compounds and a power buffer for the "rubbing out".

[Charlie Ross]

Thanks Guys,
I have a few questions on Prashun’s finishing schedule(last paragraph):

1. When you say to Sand up to 400 on the first coat – Is that to sand during or after applying Waterlox?
2. You said above to only do a small area at a time, is that true with this schedule, or can I soak the whole chest with pure Waterlox, or should I mix the first coat with BLO like you said before?
3. Sorry if I’m being thick headed, but I don’t understand… You said “Think thin, and don’t overwipe” but in your description you say to “wipe everything completely off ” then wetsand with MS, and wipe off again.

[Prashun Patel]

1. I like to sand the RAW WOOD up to 400. Most people say this is unnecessary. To each his own. For me, I get better results when I sand up to 400. Then paint on the Waterlox, and let it soak in and wipe off. This seals the wood but will leave a very slightly rough surface. The next application of Waterlox is wetsanded in with 400 to knock down the nubs and helps seal the wood even more.
2. NO! With this schedule, it's important to wipe the whole surface as swiftly and thinly as possible. The Burger Joint metaphor is a good one. I pour the finish into a small cup, dip a folded quartered shop towel in, then wipe in overlapping circles to the end of the surface, then use broad figure 8's 'with' the grain to make sure I hit all the areas. Then leave it.

3. There are only 2 times you wetsand in this schedule: the 2nd coat gets wetsanded lubed with varnish. This seals and smooths the surface. However, it creates a slurry that needs to be FULLY WIPED OFF. You'll see when you wipe off that the towel is a darker brown than just with the Waterlox - that's sanding slurry. Wipe it a couple times until the surface is smooth. The second time you wetsand is with the 600g. Attempting to wetsand this with varnish results in some streaking. I think it's better to use pure MS for this sanding. Again, you need to remove the (minor) slurry here. In addition, if you leave any MS on the surface, the next coat of Waterlox will go on streaky. It's therefore important to wipe off and let the ms evaporate - despite your instinct to apply the next coat right away.

The 'think thin don't overwipe' applies to the application of the pure Waterlox in between these sandings with the shop towel.

In fact, if you're unclear, you can really skip both the sandings. I find it results in the smoothest possible Waterlox finish. However, if your dried coats feel smooth and dustless to your fingers, then there is little benefit to sanding.

One more note - to overkill this: if you are doing many surfaces at once, then change your application shoptowel whenever it begins to drag. You'll get the smoothest results when the towel just glides over the surface effortlessly. This is also why it's important to let the surface dry for 6-8 hours between coats (YMMV).

The 'small area at a time' only applies to attempting to RUB IN the Waterlox WITHOUT any oil to mimic a hand-rubbed finish. If you mix with BLO, you can take your time with the wiping on and wiping off, but you have to get it ALL off. This does not mean rubbing HARD, but gently buffing with a shoptowel. If you use a lot of finish, then that towel will get soaked and you'll end up just wiping the stuff around, so don't be miserly; change to a clean towel so you can get it pretty much all off. At the end, your surface should have a very minor sheen, and your pinky should barely be able to feel the surface as sticky with your pinky. This method of application takes MANY coats before you start seeing results (this is where sanding to 400 helps; it speeds the building) - so resist the urge (should u go this route) to leave a film. It'll be very tempting, but it'll give you suboptimal results long term.

[Charlie Ross]

I don't know what you mean by "rubbing out". To me that is a technique of finishing the finish after the finish has fully cured for 3-4 weeks. It's not a finish application process. To most experienced finishers it means sanding the fully cured finish with a fine 600 then 1200 grip paper followed by rubbing out with a pumice and/or rottenstone to produce a smooth, high gloss finish. Most finisher use automotive polishing compounds and a power buffer for the "rubbing out".

Howie, I’ve never went as far with a oil or oil/varnish finish as what you’re describing using rottenstone/pumice… I still have a lot to learn!! When I was talking about “rubbing out”, all I’ve been doing is soaking oil/varnish and rubbing it dry till the next coat. Then on my last coats I would increase the amount of varnish/poly to build the coat, rubbing with clean/dry clothes till it stopped bleeding out. I got this Waterlox thinking it was just a durable Oil-Varnish-Blend, I guess not knowing what I was getting into. But now I started it, I’ll have to see it through!

[Charlie Ross]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Prashun! I've heard a lot of good stuff about Waterlox, and looking forward to giving it a try.

[Howard Acheson]

....all I’ve been doing is soaking oil/varnish and rubbing it dry till the next coat. Then on my last coats I would increase the amount of varnish/poly to build the coat, rubbing with clean/dry clothes till it stopped bleeding out.

I got this Waterlox thinking it was just a durable Oil-Varnish-Blend, I guess not knowing what I was getting into. But now I started it, I’ll have to see it through!

The technique you describe is appropriate for oil/varnish mixtures like Watco or an oil/varnish homebrew. It's not the way to apply a varnish or thinned varnish like Waterlox Original. Some think that Waterlox is some sort of unique finish. In truth, it's fairly standard oil based varnish. And, like any varnish, there are a couple of standard, well-proven ways to apply it. Being a varnish, it is best applied like any other varnish. Going much beyond the standard techniques only leads to complexity that can lead to problems.

Waterlox is an excellent varnish and can produce very nice durable finishes. But, keep it simple for best results. Further, as with any new finish be sure to practice on some sample boards to learn how the product "handles" and to see whether the finish meets you expectations. If you need some info on using a wipe-on technique with Waterlox let me know and I can post some good ones.

[Charlie Ross]

....If you need some info on using a wipe-on technique with Waterlox let me know and I can post some good ones.

Thanks Howie! I've had trouble in the past brushing on a varnish/poly finish, which is why i try to stay with the wipe-on finishes. For sure… if you have some techniques you could give me for applying a wipe-on Waterlox finish, that would be Great.

[Scott Holmes]

Howie will most likely agree this is well written and spot on for applying a wipe-on varnish. I use the same process...there is no reason to re-write it. Steve nailed it.

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com...n-Varnish.aspx

[Charlie Ross]

Howie will most likely agree this is well written and spot on for applying a wipe-on varnish. I use the same process...there is no reason to re-write it. Steve nailed it.

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com...n-Varnish.aspx

Good stuff Scott, Thanks!

[Howard Acheson]

Thanks Howie! I've had trouble in the past brushing on a varnish/poly finish, which is why i try to stay with the wipe-on finishes. For sure… if you have some techniques you could give me for applying a wipe-on Waterlox finish, that would be Great.

The one Scott published is excellent and is one of those I recommend. Here is a similar write-up by the guy who was one of the earliest developers and proponents of wipe-on finishing.

QUOTE

There are a number of suggested application regimens that are totally subjective. The number of coats in a given day, the % of cut on various coats, which coat to sand after, when to use the blade and a whole host of other practices are all minor differences between finishers. There are some things that I consider sacred when applying a wipe-on finish.

First, you can use any full strength oil based clear finish. Polyurethane varnish or non-poly varnish is fine.

If you are making your own wipe-on the mix is scientific - thin. I suggest 50/50 with mineral spirits because it is easier to type than any other ratio and easy to remember. Some finish formulators have jumped on the bandwagon and you can now get "wipe on" finish pre-mixed. If you use a pre-mixed, thinning is generally not necessary. But making your own is cheaper and you know what's in it.

The number of coats in a given day is not important. Important is to apply a wet coat with an applicator and merely get it on. Think of a 16 year old kid working as a busboy at Denny's you have sent over to wipe off a table. Sort of rub/swirl the the material on like you would if you were applying a paste wax. Don't attempt any straight strokes. The applicator should be wet but not soaked. The applicator can be a non-embossed paper towel shop towel, half a T-shirt sleeve or that one sock left after a load of washing. Once applied,leave it alone. The surface should not be glossy or wet looking and, if applied correctly, there should be no "brush stroke" type marks. If you have missed a spot, ignore it - you will get it on the next coat. If you try and fix a missed spot you will leave a mark in the finish.

Timing for a second coat involves the pinkie test. Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat. If was tacky 5 minutes ago but not now, apply your next coat just as you applied the previous coat. Remember, you are wet wiping, not flooding. After applying the second coat, let it fully dry for 48 hours. Using 320 paper and a sanding block lightly sand the surface flat. Now, begin applying more coats. Do not sand between coats unless you have allowed more than 24 hours to elapse since the prior coat. The number of coats is not critical - there is no critical or right number to apply. For those who need a rule, four more coats on non-critical surfaces or six more coats on surfaces that will get abraded seems to work.

After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface. You should not have marks in the surface because you ignored application flaws. You may have dust, lint and, if you live in Texas, bug legs. Use a utility knife blade at this point. Hold it between your thumb and forefinger, near the vertical, and gently scrape the surface. Gentle is the important word - no harder than you would scrape your face. If you start scraping aggressively you will leave small cut marks in the surface. After you have scraped to the baby butt stage gently abrade the surface with 320 dry paper or a gray ScotchBrite. Clean off the surface. Now, leave the area for two hours and change your clothes. Apply your last coat with a bit more care than the previous coats and walk away.

An anal person is going to have a tough time with this process. Missed spots have to be ignored. Wet wipe, don't flood. Scraping to babies butt smooth means scraping no harder than scraping a babies butt. Ignoring any of these will leave marks that are tough to get out. Getting these marks out requires some aggressive sanding to flatten out the surface and starting over.

Jim Kull

END QUOTE

It works better to use a gloss varnish for all coats except the last. The flatteners in semi-gloss and satin tend to rapidly fall out of suspension when the finish is highly thinned. If you want a non-gloss finish, use it only on the final coat or two and be sure to stir the material frequently or you will end up with cloudy streaks.

Finally, Never just jump on something like this without testing it out and practicing on scrap material. Only when you have become familiar with the process and are happy with your application, should you proceed to your real item.

[Prashun Patel]

As a non-expert who does a fair amount of wipe on varnishing, I say this is asking for trouble:

"Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat."

Until you develop some feel for this, it is extremely tempting to wipe and rewipe. Even the slightest tack on the surface prevents quick and fluid wiping. If you are a rank newbie, wait a good 6-8 hours before wiping a 2nd coat. And use a fresh applicator rag.

"After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface....Use a utility knife blade at this point."

I tend to finish very close to my workshop in areas where there is definitely airflow and dust. If you gently sand the surface every few coats - basically whenever your fingers tell you the dry surface needs it, then you really won't have to resort to a knife.