Hammer K3 79" or Grizzly G0623X

[Mark Rakestraw]

I'm quite satisfied with the Grizzly. I'm sure I'd be even happier with the Felder, but not happier enough to part with the extra money. The supports aren't there because the slider is weak, I'm sure I could jump up and down on mine. They're there to prevent tipping when the loaded sled is fully extended. I suppose that means the Felder has enough mass it doesn't need them. You're right on the switch, it's very (non)handy .....I can turn the saw off with my leg without releasing my hold on the work.

[Todd Brewer]

Thanks Mark!

A lot of Hammer responses and not much on the Grizzly side. I'd like to hear more from Grizzly owners. $3K is nothing to sneeze at! I can buy a lot of toys for $3K!

The Grizzly is a 63" slider and the Hammer is a 79' slider. Neither does 96", so I guess we still have to do cabinet-saw-style rips for long pieces, or make a jig for the slider. I have yet to find the elusive jig that turns a short stroke slider into a long stroke slider. From time to time I need to make long narrow rips, which still leaves me vulnerable to injury. I have a Festool track saw but do not see myself using it to make 1.5" or narrower rips from narrow stock.

Mark, or any other Grizzly owners, are the bevel stops solid? My G0475 table saw is a bit "spongy" when it comes to bumping up against the 0 and 45 stops. I'd like to have a rock solid stop at 0 and 45 degrees.

I don't mind the legs on the Grizzly as I do not expect to be moving the saw once I find the ideal location in my shop.

Please post any negatives with regards to the Grizzly. The Hammer is arguably a higher quality machine, but I'm not sure it is worth a $3K premium to me.

Early Grizzly reviews (circa 2009 or so) had some issues. The fence was an early problem but sounds like it has been rectified. The miter gauge also looks to be a bit "cheap". Reminds me of a typical low end miter gauge. Not speaking from experience, it just looks cheap. It also apparently can't be moved along the slider without loosing it's angle. I will pay dearly for repeatablility. I hate having to change a setup and then fuss to get to back to what is was previously. Is that laziness or perfectionism? Lit

[ed vitanovec]

I've had my Grizzly for 4 years now and glad to have it, the hammer was not in my budget. The fence is okay and the miter gauge did its job. I did adapt the Incra 1000HD to the sliding table T slot nut, I used the T nut from the stock miter gauge. The biggest thing I did not like was the blade guard and I fixed that by installing a Shark Guard. I really like the safety factor of the sliding table, cross cuts, cross cut dados and rip cuts have been really easy using the slider...not to mention the repeatability.

[Bas Pluim]

I bought the G0623X last year, and have zero regrets. I did look at the Hammer K3, but the price difference was significant enough I went with the Grizzly. Plus, I liked the idea of not having to buy new blades (or re-bore my existing ones). That too was a money saver. Also, the lead time for the Grizzly was about a week. I barely had enough time to pack up my old saw and make room.

The crosscut fence is great. There are stops for the 90 degree setting, which helps quickly setting it back square to the blade. There are two very solid aluminum flip-up stops for repeatable crosscuts. The miter gauge is decent. It has a flip-up stop and hold down clamp, and stops for 90, 45, 22.5 degrees etc. You can't move it down the sliding table without losing the setting, but I am having a hard time thinking of when that would be necessary. Of course it does mean that if you remove it from the table and then put it back on later, you'll have to reset it to the correct angle. This isn't that important to me, but if you need repeatability, this would be an issue.

As for dislikes:
- Blade guard. It's an opaque orange boat that prevents you from seeing anything. Not practical. I bought a Sharkguard, which is a major improvement. Lee makes an excellent product. First time I've actually used a blade guard on a table saw. I saw a recent post about the G0623X and it looks like Grizzly went to something transparent; that would be a big improvement.
- Dust collection. The saw has a blade shroud connected via a 2" hose to the dust port. But that's it. The saw has no bottom, so all the dust not caught by the shroud falls to the floor. The only solution I see is to cut another 4" or 6" hole in the cabinet, and fabricate some sort of bottom. In practice, this hasn't really bothered me, since the dust is just lying there. I vacuum it out once a month. The Sharkguard has also drastically cut down on the dust falling to the floor.
- To set the rip fence, you read off the scale right next to the fence. I had gotten used to a cursor on a Biesmeyer style fence, so this took a bit getting used to. Also, adjusting the scale to be calibrated is fussy. Again, with an adjustable cursor, it's easier to dial in the last 1/128". I think the Hammer has the same style fence, so this won't be a differentiator.
- Zero Clearance Inserts. Again, this is mainly a design difference between Euro sliders and the standard cabinet saw. The ZCIs are not easy to make (compared to the standard throat place insert on a cabinet saw), and swapping one out requires loosening 4 allen screws.

Overall, fit and finish were pretty good. There was a minor issue with hole in the plate that locks the sliding table being slightly out of alignment. A minute with a file and that was solved. Chances are those type things are better with the Hammer. The important bits (fence, sliding table, motor, cast iron top etc.) were all top notch.

Would I buy the G0623X again? In a heartbeat. And $3000 is a lot of money. I'm not saying the K3 isn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it to me.

[Ryan Mooney]

Nice overview on the Grizz.

The crosscut fence is great. There are stops for the 90 degree setting, which helps quickly setting it back square to the blade. There are two very solid aluminum flip-up stops for repeatable crosscuts. The miter gauge is decent. It has a flip-up stop and hold down clamp, and stops for 90, 45, 22.5 degrees etc.

The Hammer has stops at 90, but not at 45, etc.. in practice the lack of other angle stops hasn't been a problem as you have so much resolution because the swing from the pivot point to the marks is long enough that its quite a ways between individual degree marks (haven't measured but on the order of an inch+ between each mark) so its still super easy to dial in and waay more accurate than my CMS with stops.

The hammer comes with one flip stop, I ended up adding another one. This makes it trivial to get repeatable cuts on (for example) rails & stiles as you can set one stop for each.

A big +1 on the crosscut fence being the most awesome thing since sliced bread for cross cutting small-medium solid wood parts.

You can't move it down the sliding table without losing the setting, but I am having a hard time thinking of when that would be necessary. Of course it does mean that if you remove it from the table and then put it back on later, you'll have to reset it to the correct angle. This isn't that important to me, but if you need repeatability, this would be an issue.

Interesting, on the Hammer the crosscut fence assembly is (effectively) an integral unit so you can slide it back and forth on the fence no problem. In practice I agree you're correct on the marginal utility. For me this is mostly useful because I have a pretty small shop so I can park the crosscut assembly at the opposite end of the table than the one I like to use it on (its more useful at one end, more out of the way at the other..).

- Dust collection. The saw has a blade shroud connected via a 2" hose to the dust port. But that's it. The saw has no bottom, so all the dust not caught by the shroud falls to the floor. The only solution I see is to cut another 4" or 6" hole in the cabinet, and fabricate some sort of bottom. In practice, this hasn't really bothered me, since the dust is just lying there. I vacuum it out once a month. The Sharkguard has also drastically cut down on the dust falling to the floor.

The under blade dust collection on the Hammer is pretty good, I reckon it would be a whole lot better if I had more DC power (my DC setup is workable but not optimal, not the saws fault in any way shape or form). I haven't hooked the DC up to the over blade guard but based on the dust flow I see going up into it it would definitely help a fair bit (again my DC setup fault not the saw), the Hammer guard mounts on the riving knife and is ~most clear so its not bad for being in the road (over arm is probably still nicer but stock isn't bad).

- To set the rip fence, you read off the scale right next to the fence. I had gotten used to a cursor on a Biesmeyer style fence, so this took a bit getting used to. Also, adjusting the scale to be calibrated is fussy. Again, with an adjustable cursor, it's easier to dial in the last 1/128". I think the Hammer has the same style fence, so this won't be a differentiator.

Yep the same. Some like it, some don't. The one advantage I see is that the high/low fence is pretty nice for ripping smaller pieces in low mode and the extrusion (I assume the same on the grizz) is a different width in the two modes.

- Zero Clearance Inserts. Again, this is mainly a design difference between Euro sliders and the standard cabinet saw. The ZCIs are not easy to make (compared to the standard throat place insert on a cabinet saw), and swapping one out requires loosening 4 allen screws.

They're a pain on the Hammer as well. I've been making them out of some hardware store poplar (just ripping/planing to thickness and then freehanding the reliefs with a router + chisel for fine tuning, nothing fancy). You can get some pre-made inserts from Felder (not sure about Grizzly? I don't see one?); I bought one to use as a template, but am to cheap to buy them all of the time Another advantage of the homemade ones is that I make them thicker on the slider side and then bevel them to sit under the slider so they're a bit heavier duty otherwise there isn't a lot of wood left on that side when using a dado blade. I suspect the grizzly ones would not be any harder to make than the Hammer and may well be easier as the Hammer has a lot of hardware along the blade slot you have to cut little reliefs for on the underside of the ZCI.

The under table hardware also limits the size of a dado on the Hammer to ~7" (I have the 6" Forrest re-bored which is pretty nice); the Felder tooling is closer to 7" (its metric so not exact but rounded as ~7").

[Bas Pluim]

A big +1 on the crosscut fence being the most awesome thing since sliced bread for cross cutting small-medium solid wood parts.

Yup. I tried to focus on the things I didn't like about the G0623X (per OP's request), but it's difficult not to get all misty-eyed and giddy. Handling wide pieces is sooo much easier compared to my old saw. Need to cut a large table top to size? Set the stop, plop the top and....cut (I know it doesn't rhyme, but it's still poetry!)

[QUOTE=Ryan Mooney;2074243]
Interesting, on the Hammer the crosscut fence assembly is (effectively) an integral unit so you can slide it back and forth on the fence no problem.

OK, just so we're clear: The G0623X has a crosscut fence you can set from 90 to 45 degrees.
g0623x_det4.jpg
It also has a separate miter gauge that mounts to the sliding table:
g0623x_det8.jpg
The crosscut fence is great for longer items like picture frames, the miter gauge is better for short pieces (especially because of the built-in hold down clamp).

The one advantage I see is that the high/low fence is pretty nice for ripping smaller pieces in low mode and the extrusion (I assume the same on the grizz) is a different width in the two modes.

Yes, the G0623X has the dual fence as well. Like the Hammer, you can also slide it back to serve as a cut-off gauge.

You can get some pre-made inserts from Felder (not sure about Grizzly? I don't see one?)

You can't buy them. Grizzly did put out an addendum to their manual on how to fabricate one. It's not exactly difficult (we're supposed to be woodworkers, right?), but there are a lot of operations involved.

The under table hardware also limits the size of a dado on the Hammer to ~7" (I have the 6" Forrest re-bored which is pretty nice); the Felder tooling is closer to 7" (its metric so not exact but rounded as ~7").

The G0623X takes a standard 8" dado stack, which is nice. Note that with a 3/4" wide stack, the right side of the ZCI is almost completely eaten up. There is maybe 3/16" left.

[Rod Sheridan]

Todd, here's a link to video on the Hammer C3, well worth watching as you'll find your elusive jig that turns a short stroke slider into a long stroke slider in it.

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/...osgruppen_id=0

I have the B3 Winner, 49"model and I added the outrigger and precision mitre index system. This allows me to put the crosscut fence anywhere along the table, and the precision mitre index system gives you exact angles via a pin for 90 to 45 in 5 degree increments.

That's the great thing with the Hammer machine, you get exactly what you want, the machine is perfect for your applications, not a compromise based upon offering a standard one size fits all.

I suggest that you watch the Hammer C3 and B3 videos to obtain a better view of their capabilities.

You can only add options at the factory stage (tilting spndle on the shaper, scoring saw, some other items), however you can add everything else whenever you want. I ran mine for 2 years without an outrigger and then added it.

Likewise I purchased a shaper tenon hood and table, and a Euro curve shaper guard later.

Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Mooney]

Yup. I tried to focus on the things I didn't like about the G0623X (per OP's request), but it's difficult not to get all misty-eyed and giddy. Handling wide pieces is sooo much easier compared to my old saw. Need to cut a large table top to size? Set the stop, plop the top and....cut (I know it doesn't rhyme, but it's still poetry!)

Interesting, on the Hammer the crosscut fence assembly is (effectively) an integral unit so you can slide it back and forth on the fence no problem.

OK, just so we're clear: The G0623X has a crosscut fence you can set from 90 to 45 degrees.
g0623x_det4.jpg
It also has a separate miter gauge that mounts to the sliding table:
g0623x_det8.jpg
The crosscut fence is great for longer items like picture frames, the miter gauge is better for short pieces (especially because of the built-in hold down clamp).

The G0623X takes a standard 8" dado stack, which is nice. Note that with a 3/4" wide stack, the right side of the ZCI is almost completely eaten up. There is maybe 3/16" left.

Ok yeah I was talking about using the outrigger. I don't have a comparable small miter gauge. The smaller Hammer saws appear to come with a miter assembly stock and the 79x48 just with the outrigger assembly by default (my rep said I could buy the miter assembly later but I don't recall the cost). Felder also has a really nice add on miter system but its closer to the cost of a G1023 cabinet saw .. so yeah..

I can see the advantages though as you can get a support a lot closer to the blade (currently use a subfence for that purpose) and it is nice it comes with a hold down, that would be nifty for sure. On the recent fritz/franz workholding thread on the FOG/here I saw some shop made ones similar to the felder.

The remaining material on the ZCI on the Hammer on the side with the dado assembly is comparable which is why I make them with more support on the slider side (the slider is beveled under so the ZCI can get another 1/4" or so of material slid under the slider itself). I don't see a huge difference either way there.

Looking closer at the parts breakout and pictures (I was curious about the griz miter gauge so looked closer), the Rip fence on the Grizz looks closer to the older style Hammer Fence. The newer machines (appears to be the default but cross check) a fence that is essentially the same as the one on the larger Felder machines. The main difference is that the rail is a solid iron bar instead of a tube (yes its HEAVY) and the fence support assembly is a nice big hunk of cast iron. I haven't seen/used the older style but ppl who've seen both claim the newer is much nicer (no complaints on slip, maintaining alignment, etc.. here anyway). Like I said, functionally I don't know how much difference it makes but I'd put a vote in for the stock Hammer fence assembly as being more robust.

On the table support.. I'm thinking the Grizzly may? stick out a bit more on the infeed side than the comparable Hammer? But its close either way. If you are looking at the smaller Hammers you'll have less "saw" in the way using it in traditional rip saw mode, for the 79x48 vs the grizz I think it looks close to a wash.

[David Kumm]

Have you seen the Laguna TS on Woodweb? Worth a look at 3K. Dave

[Todd Brewer]

Bas, saw blade cost is a good point, but I currently own only one really good blade, Woodworker II. I tried to find some examples of blade cost: 5/8" bore vs the Hammer/Felder style. Didn't see it on the Forrest site. Probably have to call them. I can probably have the blade bored at a local shop. I have a drawer full of blades but that's all they do, sit in the drawer.

Rod, thanks for the link to the video showing how to convert to a long stroke slider.

David, I took a look at the Laguna on Woodweb. It's in Georgia, I'm in California.

The cross cut fence on both of these machines can only adjust from 90 thru 45 degrees, not 90 to +/- 45 degrees, right? If so, then to make a mirror of a 45 degree panel one would need to flip the second panel over. I guess this is not so much of an issue if using the scoring blade.

How much value is there in a 48" rip capacity? The Hammer model I am looking at comes with 48" capacity standard. I can get it with 31" capacity but it's the same price. The only reason I am considering the 31" rip capacity is to minimize the footprint. I do have a track saw for wider rips or maybe use the slider side in the first place. Am I missing something here?

Speaking of footprints, even thought the Grizzly rip capacity is less than the Hammer (33" vs 48") the Grizzly needs more width. It looks like this is due to the Grizzly having the cross cut extension as a standard feature.

Decisions, decisions, Hammer prices are going up soon if they haven't already. My quote with the "old" price expires soon, and I,m feeling some pressure to decide soon.

[Ryan Mooney]

Bas, saw blade cost is a good point, but I currently own only one really good blade, Woodworker II. I tried to find some examples of blade cost: 5/8" bore vs the Hammer/Felder style. Didn't see it on the Forrest site. Probably have to call them. I can probably have the blade bored at a local shop. I have a drawer full of blades but that's all they do, sit in the drawer.

Here are part #'s for compatible Tenryu blades for the Hammer just for another price compare data point:
IW-25032CBD3 - rip
IW-25080ABD3 - cc
IW-25080AB3 - veneer
IW-25040CBD3 - combo

They run about $70 each, cut is comparable with the Forrest, but Forrest will also re-bore for not to much extra (http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.co...G_CHARGES.html - I think that means $11 for bore plus $11 the pinholes, that makes the price align with the Dado cost anyway). The bigger expense is the Dado conversion if you use that, add $80 to the Dado King. I got two of the lower priced (in relative terms) Felder blades with the saw, I prefer the cut off of the Tenryu, but the difference is kind of nit picking. Carbide Processors sells the Tenryu and also their own blades, not sure on the cost to have their blades re-bored, give them a call to they make nice stuff.

The cross cut fence on both of these machines can only adjust from 90 thru 45 degrees, not 90 to +/- 45 degrees, right? If so, then to make a mirror of a 45 degree panel one would need to flip the second panel over. I guess this is not so much of an issue if using the scoring blade.

Correct. Its mostly annoying because you have to reset everything up to do complementary angles if you're working on pre-profiled stock. Check out the videos I posted links to in this thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...-consideration The jigs described could be used with either saw and would make working with solid stock even sweeter (they are on my short list which is pretty long).

I have scoring blade capability but have never actually bought a scoring blade, and have honestly not felt the lack as I just don't get meaningful tearout on most stock. Many others report the same, although I have no reasonable explanation why the cut quality would be better off of the slider. I may feel differently if I did a lot of melamine or other smooth surface sheet goods or did a lot of edge banded faceless cabinetry so YMMV. It seemed like a nice feature to have "just in case" cause you can't add it later (the Hammer blade is about another $150, it looks like carbide processors sells one I believe would work for just over $100 )...

How much value is there in a 48" rip capacity? The Hammer model I am looking at comes with 48" capacity standard. I can get it with 31" capacity but it's the same price. The only reason I am considering the 31" rip capacity is to minimize the footprint. I do have a track saw for wider rips or maybe use the slider side in the first place. Am I missing something here?

I have the 30" version of the 79x48 (actually 31" it turns out - 800mm, but whatever). I haven't honestly felt the lack much. The outrigger I have (1300mm) goes to a bit over 50" so its bigger than the 48" table would have been (and easier to fold out of the way ). With the table locked the outrigger ~mostly acts as another 50" of support to the left of the blade so I just work with that if need be. One case where it _may_ be handy is using the rip fence as a stop and then ripping a 4x8 sheet into 2 * 4x4, although I'm not sure why that would be a lot better than the outrigger.

[Ryan Mooney]

Actually let me clarify the 90 +-45 statement since what I said was slightly misleading. With the Hammer (and it looks like the Grizz is ~the same from the manual) you can go 90 -45 with the cross fence in the front position on the outrigger and 90 +45 with the cross fence in the rear position. You can't go +- 45 without remounting the fenceand resetting up the angle (two hand screws about 3-4 minutes for me to flip the fence and get the angle right). With the hammer you move the workpiece from in front of the fence to behind it when you move the fence position.

[Todd Brewer]

Thanks Ryan! Great info and great videos!

The scoring blade on my quote is $113. The quote also includes a 250mm (10") Universal blade for $75. Does anyone know if the Hammer 250mm is a worthwhile blade? Maybe I should cancel the 10" and order a Forrest of Tenyru or other? Assuming it's not a required purchase.

I think I'll keep the scoring blade on the order.

I sent eamils to Forrest and Carbide Processors inquiring about cost of blades with Hammer K3 arbor pattern.

All of this of course, assumes that I go with the Hammer.

Is there a blade break on the Grizzly? My current Grizzly takes 9-10 seconds for the blade to spin down. I didn' see anything mentioned on the Grizzly site. I'm guessing no. I assume the extra pins in the Hammer arbor (and holes in the blade) are needed to brake the blade in 3 seconds. Not a deal breaker, but when you want that blade to stop, you want it to stop ASAP!

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, the pins are for blade braking, an EU requirement...............Rod.

[Ryan Mooney]

The scoring blade on my quote is $113. The quote also includes a 250mm (10") Universal blade for $75. Does anyone know if the Hammer 250mm is a worthwhile blade? Maybe I should cancel the 10" and order a Forrest of Tenyru or other? Assuming it's not a required purchase.

I've only used the "standard quality" which were good blades, but I think the Forrest and Tenryu are slightly better - at least on cut quality (and probably Carbide Processors although no direct experience). I haven't tried the "Industry quality" so I don't know how it compares (and don't know what you're getting - you can likely figure it out form the part # and the http://www.felder-tooling.us website). The PDF spec sheet claims that one scoring blade and one standard are "complimentary", maybe thats new or ?? I didn't get a scoring blade and paid for the rip and combo blade a couple years ago anyway.

Is there a blade break on the Grizzly? My current Grizzly takes 9-10 seconds for the blade to spin down. I didn' see anything mentioned on the Grizzly site. I'm guessing no. I assume the extra pins in the Hammer arbor (and holes in the blade) are needed to brake the blade in 3 seconds. Not a deal breaker, but when you want that blade to stop, you want it to stop ASAP!

The brake also hums for a few seconds after which is pretty disconcerting when you first hear it.

Also if you decide to go with the Hammer, do watch the setup videos from the eshop site (scroll down):
http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-0...ner-79x48.html
The main hammerusa site only directly links to the first setup video and well.. I found them about 1/2 way through setting mine up and a couple of things that were head scratching became crystal clear.

Ah and one more thing I noticed getting that link - on my 31" wide saw the extension table is only the smaller 1/2 depth table, not the full depth table that makes up 1/2 of the 48" wide assembly (its basically the smaller extension table only). Don't know if that would affect your 31" vs 48" decision.

I also got one rail and a short outfeed extension table which is pretty nice as well..