Oneida DC remote died - NOW WITH UPDATE FROM ONEIDA!!

[Philip Berman]

I'm aware of the 1-year thing on industrial electronics. The difference here is that Oneida is a small company that to some degree or another derives its business from word-of-mouth, and can make this right at small cost to themselves but great benefit. Aside from the cost to purchase a replacement unit, if it were on their dime a better product would have been sought out some time ago. To me, Oneida falls into the "VIKING/SUBZERO" class of woodworking equipment - it's a premium product and not like a popular-priced machine like a 6' jointer from Jet. So sometimes you take one for the team, if that team is a somewhat finite group of people who may be potential customers. As for the electronics destined for MRI's, CT's, etc, I can understand something like this in an environment where you've got 3 shifts of who-knows-how-many with no one particularly caring about the treatment or mistreatment, but in this case they're dealing with people some of whom just may treat their tools with more kindness and tenderness than their spouse.

Phil

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I never said it wasn't inferior, I only stated that Oneida isn't doing anything that other manufacturers aren't doing. Typical warrantees for electronics equipments is 1 year. Some credit card companies and businesses like Costco will agree to underwrite, for free, a 2nd year warrantee on equipment if you buy it using their CC or in their store.

That being said, when a company like Oneida is trying to compete pricewise with companies like Grizzly, some considerations have to be made. Oneida's machine was, I haven't checked lately, made entirely in the US. Thus their manufacturing expenses are higher to meet greater labor expenses, more stringent environmental regulations and the use of a US made Baldor motor, as in my case, etc. With that in mind, to compete in a comparable performance and price range they may elect to use a more cheaply made remote. Oneida like Grizzly has to make a profit or go defunct like so many US manufacturing companies have over the last few years. I don't know if Oneida is privately or publicly owned but regardless the owners or stockholders demand and deserve a reasonable return on their investments.

It's easy for us as consumers to say "I am buying "brand X" because it's $100 cheaper" but would we be willing to pay an additional $30 for a better quality remote? Again, competition in today's market based on the "Wal-Mart" attitude of the consumer makes it tough for US manufacturers to compete for a multitude of reasons.

These are the types of things management of a manufacturing company have to consider when choosing a design and make manufacturing decisions before the first product goes out the door.

.......and now I am waiting for my remote to fail.

[John Keeton]

.....some of whom just may treat their tools with more kindness and tenderness than their spouse....

Phil

Present company excluded, of course!!!! I suspect Oneida simply did not realize the impact of this situation, and I do understand what Ken is saying. But, if there is a way to resolve this in a reasonable manner that is fair to all, then that should be done. I remain hopeful Oneida will cease the opportunity!

[Philip Berman]

I too am ever the optimist. But I am rather amazed at the number of folks who just accepted this and sent more money to purchase the same inferior-quality remote which may or may not last as long as the first. And didn't we already demonstrate our willingness to pay a premium price for a premium product - I believe Oneida is the most expensive product in each of the various sizes, so yeah, we've proven we're willing to pay more. And for that 'more' I expect a reliable product with components that are of equal quality throughout and having a reasonable lifespan. As for the remarks about profitability and competitiveness, that's their business to worry about, not ours as customers. That so many people have had problems with this indicates there's an issue here that Oneida needs to address beyond telling us how much more money it's going to take to get their product to turn on.

Phil

[John Coloccia]

Years ago, our Volvo remote accidentally ended up in the washing machine. No more remote for the car. That was about 2 weeks after we bought it. Volvo wanted $300 or $400 to replace it. From how they explained it they essentially had to take the car completely apart, send the engine, 3 computers and the left front tire back to Sweden for reprogramming, and when everything got back they would have to repaint the car purple before reassembling it. Anyhow, it was expensive. That was in 2007. We just traded in that car last weekend, and we never did replace the remote. Turning the key ended up not being such a big deal after all...

I'm not sure I have a point other than to be grateful your dust collector doesn't have a Swedish computer in it

[John Keeton]

After my phone conversation with Lisa at Oneida, and a couple of email exchanges, I received a phone call today from Jeff Hill, general manager and engineer with Oneida. Jeff was very understanding of the situation, and was seeking my feedback and suggestions for resolving the issue - both short term and long term.

After our conversation, he asked what he could do presently to address public concerns, and I suggested he draft an email response to me that I could post in this thread - so, here it is.

John-

Thanks again for your time and constructive feedback. To follow is a summary of our call and action items we are taking on this matter…

Our current switch & remote control system is one that developed over many years of experiences with inferior products and with the attempt to provide the safest, best functioning, cost-effective, switching possible. We had previously used other remotes and were not satisfied as they had poor lifespan and did not provide adequate motor protection with overload etc. Our magnetic starters provide overload protection as well as protection from a motor re-starting after a power outage. The remotes feature good range and do not require line-of-sight to operate.

Oneida is becoming aware that the remote control lifespan is not as long as either customers or Oneida would like them to be. An otherwise great product risks being tarnished by a component we do not produce but that has a direct effect on the user experience. It’s a shame and one we want to improve for everyone involved.

Oneida and our suppliers will be working to better determine the source of the problems. What is causing the failures? Environmental conditions? Poor quality? We will be developing methods to prevent failures, making component changes and or quality improvements. This will be a work in progress but it is one that I have already initiated internally as well as with our suppliers.

Failures may happen regardless of how much improvement we can gain on the components. Oneida understands that customers are frustrated by not being able to purchase both individual components of the remote control system (transmitter and receiver), separately as well as the cost of replacement items. Oneida has chosen to sell the components together, as a set, to ensure that a customer will definitely receive the parts they need to make their system functional again. There is no easy way for a non-technical person to safely test the components and know which piece is causing a problem. Thus it seemed to make good sense to replace the set and ensure you become operational again.

That said, Oneida understands the frustration surrounding the issue and at least for the time-being while we research this further we will be offering the replacement component set at a 50% discount for anyone who has an Oneida failed remote and is outside of our warranty period. If you or any of your peers have had a recent failure that required replacement of these parts please contact me and I will arrange a credit back to the discounted price. I probably need to cut that off for orders placed after 1/1/2013 for accounting purposes.

We have always tried to have generous warranty coverage and over the top customer service on all our products. We will be working to improve on these items and thank you again for your help in that process.

Jeffrey M. Hill

Oneida Air Systems Inc.
1001 West Fayette St. Syracuse, NY 13204
800-732-4065 315-476-5151 315-476-5044 fax

[Ryan Baker]

Thanks to Jeff Hill for the feedback. It's good to know that Oneida is working on resolving the issue, as it clearly has generated a lot of bad press all over the Internet. I would suggest that those with failed receivers should return them to Oneida (with their approval of course). Having failed parts to autopsy makes a HUGE difference in trying to determine the cause and therefore produce a faster fix.

My remote has not failed yet, though I expect it will happen. I was well aware of the numerous reports before I bought my unit, but I bought it for the collector, not the switch. I have no complaints about the rest of the starter equipment or the remote (which works better than expected). The problem clearly lies with the receiver unit failing prematurely. If that component could be upgraded to something more robust (and affordable), that would fix the weak link in an otherwise great product.

I would also suggest Oneida consider moving to a low-voltage switching solution instead of the 220V switching used now (on the switch side of the contactor). The remote receiver would probably be more durable than one operating at 220V, but it would also allow easy and affordable use of wired remote switches and other user-provided switching options.

[Ole Anderson]

Just a note on use of the Oneida remote, which you have probably experienced: They will not work if you sit them on a metal machine top and push the button. Something about the metal blocks or absorbs the signal. Hand held or sitting on wood is not a problem.

[Phil Thien]

Maybe Oneida could unbundle the remotes from the control units. I would think some people would want extra remotes, and some people would want only the control unit to replace one that had gone bad.

So if someone calls and has a bad control unit, they can offer to sell them a replacement for $45 sans the remote.

Now Oneida has a spare remote. When someone orders a new cyclone, they can say, "hey, how would you like a spare remote for $45? They can come in handy in larger shops, and it isn't a bad idea to have a spare in case you ever drop yours, yada yada yada."

We get keyboards/mice shipped in the same box, and we split them up all the time. You'd think we'd end up with more keyboards than mice (or vice versa), and sometimes we have 2-3 more of one, than the other. But a week or two later, it has reversed.

[Dick Mahany]

Just a note on use of the Oneida remote, which you have probably experienced: They will not work if you sit them on a metal machine top and push the button. Something about the metal blocks or absorbs the signal. Hand held or sitting on wood is not a problem.

And I thought it was just me. Initially had it on my Bies bar and noticed that. Moving it to a wood bench solved it.

[John Keeton]

Maybe Oneida could unbundle the remotes from the control units. I would think some people would want extra remotes, and some people would want only the control unit to replace one that had gone bad.

Phil, this is one of the suggestions I posed to Jeff, and my impression is they will probably do that. The problem, of course, is that it is sometimes not possible for us 'electronically impaired' to tell which is malfunctioning - the receiver or the fob.

[Phil Thien]

Phil, this is one of the suggestions I posed to Jeff, and my impression is they will probably do that. The problem, of course, is that it is sometimes not possible for us 'electronically impaired' to tell which is malfunctioning - the receiver or the fob.

Good point.

You know, $90 for the set really isn't bad.

I can't tell you the # of times I've been holding (figuratively) the proof in my hands in the form of posts from dozens of others all complaining about a problem, and the vendor still denies, denies, denies.

So I think it is great that Oneida keeps the price low and acknowledges it has to address the underlying problem.

[Alan Schaffter]

All this is so easy to do, and if Oneida is going off-shore for their electricals and electronics it could likely be done without much of an increase in cost.

In recent years, I suspect to save money, tool manufacturers have totally gotten away from low voltage control (LVC). Now they use mag starters with full voltage coils- 110V or 220V- eliminating the need for a transformer to make the control (26V) voltage. It makes it tougher, however, to add additional/remote control stations since they must be wired for 220V. If you have ever looked at the prices of Furnas switches, relays, and contactors, the heavy duty, made in USA stuff that was supplied with the old Delta LVC, you see why they were abandoned. A replacement Furnas momentary switch (mechanism only, no buttons and cover plate) can cost almost as much as one of today's cheap all-in-one mag starters.

I personally like the old Delta LVCs and have them on most of my machines. They work well and allowed me to add a stalk switch to my jointer, etc.

The RF transmitter/receiver circuits needed for an LVC are pretty simple, I use something similar with my autogate system. Oneida doesn't "do" electronics (or at least not well), so they must spec it out to a (off-shore?) manufacturer and may not have done an adequate job in that regard (or just tried to save money.)

Oneida should have taken me up on my high dust alarm a few years ago. I could have provided them a building block, plug and play system- one that a customer could easily add (no wiring required) to a standard (LVC) mag starter if he wanted to add RF remote control, a high dust alarm, and auto shut down in a dust bin high dust condition. . Each one, except the LVC, could be easily removed by the user and returned for inspection/repair/replacement without affecting the DC.

[Philip Berman]

yes Ryan, you've got it right - the bad publicity pushed them to take some sort of action, which is half admirable. But let's not lose sight of the fact though that there are threads going back years, and not until I publicly pointed a finger at them, and others joined in, that it should be Oneida's responsibility was there an offer from them or even mention of possible culpability. I made a phone call at least a year or year-and-a-half ago about my remote and suggestions of a manufacturing problem fell on deaf ears, as did the suggestion that they be responsible and replace the unit at no cost to me. At that time, there already had been multiple posts on this and other forums about the failing remotes. Not to beat a dead horse, but your post implies that Oneida took this step on their own, when in fact they were pushed. They absolutely do deserve [50%]credit for attempting to make this right at this time, but lack of quality control or not knowing the product they're sending out doesn't deserve kudos, especially when it's been memorialized on this and other forums (and pointed out to them during the previously-mentioned phone call) that the problem was more pervasive than that of the one unit I was contacting them about.

Alan, what's an LVC?

Philip

[John Keeton]

Philip, while much of what you post has merit, let's at least acknowledge that Oneida is now doing the right thing. Clearly, their website states that the electronics, including this switch assembly and remote, is warranted for 90 days. Most all of the problems have occurred after 2-5 years. Like most, I feel the receiver is sub-par, but pounding on Oneida at this point seems a little harsh. They are stepping up, making a reasonable effort to help those needing replacements, and taking a serious look at how to resolve this in the future. I appreciate that response, particularly when all of these situations of which I am aware occurred well outside the warranty period. I suspect you will not find that sort of response many places, including major car manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, etc.

Jeff has asked that I send him back the receiver for inspection. Hopefully, this will assist them in diagnosing the problem.