End vise advice: traditional or wagon?

[Mike Cogswell]

I'm posting this here instead of the workshop forum specifically because I'm seeking advice in the context of hand tool use.

I currently have two workbenches, a long (16' or so) one that is basically a butcher block top on base cabinets. It's almost 30 years old, but was really intended for use with power tools and has no end vise. I also have a small 5' x 2' bench with a full width single screw end vise that has terrible racking. I have gradually turned more and more to hand tools over the past several years, a process that has accelerated since I retired almost two years ago. Since the honey-do and daddy-do lists currently include two more kitchens and five full bathrooms I'm now getting completely away from tools with tails. But for my personal pleasure and satisfaction I've turned to attempting some hand tool furniture, so I really need a better suited bench with much better work holding. I plan to cut the long bench back to 8' or so, but keep it mostly as an assembly table.

For my new bench, after reading a number of bench books and pondering the shortcomings of my current ones, I plan to build a Shaker style bench based largely on the one the the Scott Landis book. I'm pretty settled on a front leg vise, but haven't quite decided on the end vise. While I like the look of a traditional one (like I would have using the LN hardware) I can't help but think I might find a wagon vise (like the Benchcrafted hardware) a better choice.

So, I'd really like to hear from users of either type what you consider the pros and cons of your setup. Hopefully I'll even hear from a few who have used both.

Thanks in advance.

[Jim Ritter]

Hi Mike, I don't have a wagon vise so I can't really compare. I almost put a wagon vise on the bench I built last year but didn't have the room for the overhang that was needed for it. The bench is only 5' long. This past summer a friend of mine retired last year and gave me his Ulmia bench with a tail vise, and I like it a lot. The gap in the face from the jaw I find really handy.



It just has more possibilities than a wagon. But truth be told I love almost any vise, my work puts a lot of demands on work holding.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

I wrote the following on my blog when I was designing and building my bench about 14 months ago:

I was asked why I chose the Benchcraft tail vise.

The choice of tail vise was made on a number of factors, one of which was the space available for the bench. My bench is placed against a rear wall in my garage/shop. The length of the bench is limited by a cabinet, to the left, and a door, to the right. It comes down to the longer the bench, the shorter the tail vise ... or, the longer the tail vise, the shorter the bench.

The Benchcraft tail vise is notable in that the handle remains in one position, that is, does not "screw out" or "screw in" in length. This translates into a short vise, which means I can build a longer bench. The bench size increases from a little under 5' to a little over 6'. This may not sound a lot, but it is a massive change for me.

I was initially planning on building my own version of the Benchcraft wagon vise. However, when Chris Vesper visited with me last year, he mentioned that he had purchased the BC tail vise. When I asked why he had not simply built his own - since he is a top class machinist - he explained that the design of the vise places great stresses on the mechanism (it screws at the side of the captured dog so as to run close to the edge of the bench), and that to accommodate this, the steel work needed to be heavy duty ... and that the BC was built like the proverbial tank. He did not believe he could replicate it. That sold me on the BC for the tail vise.

The link to my build is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html (just scroll down the Index page).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My bench is an economy Sjoberg with the same vise components for the face and tail vise. Racking is controllable with a stack of shims.

See:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...k-Spacer-Stack

There is a picture with my end vise in the post.

The idea of a wagon vise is appealing, but it doesn't have the versatility of this simpler vise for some of my work.

The vise screw and jaws are easily removed to allow for a piece to be clamped flush to the end. For this I have built a spacer that has dowels that slip into holes at the end to create a rail parallel and co-planer to the top edge. My thoughts for a wagon vise tend to include being able to keep this type of vise on the end of the bench. One design has a removable hand wheel or other operator for the wagon that can be easily removed.

The advantages of this type of vise for my work style overshadow a wagon vise since this style can hold work flat for planing just as well as a wagon vise. The wagon vise does not allow as long of a piece, by a few inches, to be held since the wagon vise span is less than the full bench length and the other is actually beyond the end of the bench when holding.

Often my shooting board or saw hooks are held in the end vise since shooting or sawing in line with the length of the bench works better than across the bench.

Also to consider, a wagon vise is easier to install if the bench top is made with a wagon vise in the design. Other styles of end vises will likely be easier to instal on a preexisting bench top.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Derek brings up an important consideration about the room you have around your bench.

My bench has room around both ends that do not constrict my vise.

jtk

[John Walkowiak]

A traditional tail vice with square steel dogs will be much more versatile and will hold anything you put on the bench. I use the opening for the majority of my work holding. Don't forget to line the faces with leather for the best grip.

[Erik Christensen]

I have had a small knockdown bench with standard single screw tail vise for 30+ years. it was Ok for what it was. when I started to get into handtools a few years ago I was constantly reminded of its shortcomings. just finished a benchcraft shaker build - the wagon vise is the cat's meow.

[Jeff Bartley]

Mike, I installed a Benchcrafted wagon vise when I built my bench a few years ago and it was the best woodworking decision I've made to date! It's expensive but well worth it, Derek isn't joking about it being built like a tank! But I must qualify my endorsement by admitting that I haven't spent much time with a traditional end vise......in fact I think the only time I've used one was at a Lie-Nielsen event. The Lie-Nielsen hardware is nice too but I prefer the hand wheel.

[Jim Koepke]

This thread is of great interest to me since no decision has been made as to how my end vise needs will be handled.

It appears those who have a wagon vise certainly like it.

It appears those who have a regular vise seem to also like their vise.

One advantage that is a plus for the wagon vise is it doesn't extend beyond the bench as much as a vise with a jaw against the end of the bench.

It also has an advantage over my end vise of having a longer travel and no racking.

For me the advantage of my set up is my preference for working at the tail end of my bench than at the face vise end. There are also a couple of other accessories that get used by being held in the tail vise like a couple of metal working vises that are on supports that are held in either of my vises. Shorter stock is also often held in my end vise when dovetailing or doing other things.

My thoughts are still trending toward finding a way to incorporate both types of vises for end vises.

So my request is for others to list what they see as advantages of one type of vise over the other. Maybe we can have a list of why we like one over the other as a reference for those who wonder about this in the future.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

For me the advantage of my set up is my preference for working at the tail end of my bench than at the face vise end. There are also a couple of other accessories that get used by being held in the tail vise like a couple of metal working vises that are on supports that are held in either of my vises.

That echoes my thoughts - I have a small iron vise mounted as an end vise. Someday maybe I'll upgrade to something nicer with a little less potential to rack or sag, but there a lot of sawing tasks I like to do at the end of my bench, it allows me to position my body in a way amenable to the task at hand easier. (This is brought more to the fore because of how my workspace is forced to be laid out as well.) This type of end vise is particularly handy for tenon sawing, and small cuts can be made by holding the work in the vise so that cut line extends past the face of the bench and the saw travels parallel to the front of the bench. Particularly handy for parts that are a little awkward to cut either on the saw horses or a bench hook.

And, as Jim says, I find that type of vise invaluable for holding other things in place - my small metal working vise and bench grinder, each mounted on auxiliary bases are the most frequent. The wide clamping surface of the vise combined with the cleats attached to these bases holds these quite well.

The strong point on the wagon vise seems to be holding work between dogs for working on faces. The more I work wood, the more I find myself liking to work against cleats or battens so that I don't have to clamp things for this work; it's the work where I find myself most often removing the work to get a better look at it, flipping it around to deal with tearout, work the other side, etc. Not saying a wagon or end vise is bad, just the cost-vs-function calculus doesn't work out for me and the way I find myself liking to work. Of course, the way I like to work is really driven by the bench I've been working on! Had I made different choices when I built it, I might be working in a different way.

[george wilson]

I would not even consider anything but a tail vise. I used mine all the time when I was open to the public in the museum. The leg vise was not in a handy location in that shop.I did everything in the tail vise.

I took 2 4"X4" pieces of oak 6" long. I drilled a hole down through the side of each block,one on each jaw of the tail vise. I put a long lag bolt into each block,and had them for vise jaws that could be swiveled to angles to hold musical instrument necks in. It worked out great for the type of work I was doing.

[David Weaver]

I have an end vise in the bench I have now. It's an economy bench, but my next one will have a tail vise.

[Josh Doran]

I'd been on the market recently for an end vise, mostly with the purpose of pinching panels. I already had a bench built with the intent of installing a quick release vise down the road when I found one I liked. So I considered many of the options discussed here. I narrowed it down to a quick release vise, the BC wagon vise, or a twin screw chain drive vise. I thought in addition to pinching panels, it would be nice to have a vise perpendicular to the bench. I figured this way I could stick boards out the edge of the vise and use a drawknife or spokeshave without bumping the handles into the bench. I finally decided on the Lie Nielsen chain drive vise. I chose it for the robust parts, the hidden chain, and the non-racking ability.I had them shorten the chain so I could fit the screws between the legs. This option also saved retrofitting my bench and tearing it up in the process. It will make the bench longer, but for me that's a fare trade. I haven't received my order yet, so can't comment on how I like it. But I think it has great potential.

[Joe E Harris]

Wagon Vice with a LV Screw
2013-02-18_13-12-22_931.jpg
This is a retro fit because i didnt like the Tail Vice called for and the large opening will be corrected.

Joe Harris

[Tom Vanzant]

I see that L-N is introducing two new vises... a Moxon-type that clamps to the workbench and a leg vise... both based on their chain vise. Interesting, but not inexpensive.