Older can sometimes mean Better

[Glenn Samuels]

Until recently, I thought that newunused tools had to be better than vintage tools. Then I had arevelation! I had ordered some brand new paring chisels and was veryexcited about having them for a lifetime ! Started paring and whatdo you know, the edges started rolling over. Tried another but gotthe same result. Obvioiusly, I was very disappointed.


I had made a post about this sadsituation and rec'd a PM from a very nice member on this site (heasked not to be mentioned here). He offered to send me a vintagebuck brothers chisel and asked me to try it. A few days later itarrived, and after setting the edge and polishing the back I gave ita try. It worked head and shoulders better than the new chisels thatI had purchased.


I want to thank members who want toeducate us newbees on the virtues of older vintage chisels. I am aconvert. I even bid on a old Hibbard, Spencer, and Barlett...... andwon. Obviously, not all chisels will be good quality but searching for a good older chisel can be fun!!!

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder if this anonymous tool donor is the same person sending me a couple parers. The Robin Hood of vintage tools... he takes from the evil collectors and antique dealers and gives to lowly woodworkers in an effort to drive down demand and thus exorbitant prices on vintage tools....

Glad to hear about your experience!

[Jim Belair]

Great to hear you're a convert to vintage tools thanks to the generosity of a fellow Creeker.

In fairness to the modern chisel makers, it's not that uncommon for new chisels to have poor edge holding out of the box. You just need to grind back a bit and get into the better steel.

[greg Forster]

Older can sometimes mean Better

that's what I keep telling everyone

[Glenn Samuels]

double meaning? hhhmmmm

[Mike Henderson]

While you might find some older tools that are better than some newer tools, if you compare older tools to the better modern tools you'll find that the newer tools are superior. Do a head-to-head comparison of old chisels (for example) to the modern LN, LV (especially the PM-V11 chisels) or Blue Spruce chisels. I think you'll find that the modern chisels hold an edge longer than any older chisel. Additionally, the quality of older chisels are hit or miss, while the quality of modern chisels are pretty consistent.

It would be sad if in the last 100+ years we were not able to improve the performance of chisels and plane blades. It is extremely rare to find any product that has not been improved on in the last 100 years.

Mike

[The idea that older things are better is common in our society, and I don't know why. I encountered this when I was a kid, when grownups lamented how things were better when they were young - and I didn't understand it then. I continue to hear such things today and I still don't understand it. Lots of engineers have works lots of hours to improve every product that's made today. Surely those engineers are not incompetent so there must be some other reasons.

One, perhaps, is the "rose colored glasses" effect of looking back.

Second may be the definition of quality. W. Edward Deming defined quality as, "Quality is what the customer says it is." In modern terms, it's defined as "Meeting the needs of the customer." So a product may be made to meet certain criteria, and that criteria is not what a reviewer thinks it should be. And remember that price is a quality specification.

In our woodworking areas, there are many options to choose from, and each may be a quality product depending on the needs of the user. For a long lasting edge (without regard to cost) we have the brands I mentioned earlier. For products at a more affordable price point, there are many options, each with specific advantages and disadvantages.]

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, there are improvements in the processes of making tool steel that enable chisels to have superior edges when compared to those made a century ago.

Unfortunately, just like a century ago, there are makers who are more concerned with making profits than making good tools.

My luck with older chisels from many makers has been pretty good.

jtk

[george wilson]

In recent years,the expensive saws,chisels,and planes make by companies like LV,LN,and saws by them,and the private makers who make them one at a timer,using 1095 steel,are better than any of the old tools. Excluding these examples,old tools of quality ARE better. It depends upon the brand of old tool you are looking at.

When I was real young,I thought new tools were better,too,but that was way back in the 50's,when decent established brands still amounted to something. But,even then,a good tool 100 years old,would have been better than the average new tool.

Today, companies like LV nd LN are making some of the finest tools ever made. But,you have to pay for fine tools.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Old vs New is always an area of controversy and opinions vary depending on personal experiences, the type of tool purchased, individual finances, and a host of other factors. Personally I have had both good and bad luck with both old and new over my 40+ years of woodworking and tool purchasing. If we lumped all new hand tools into 3 quality classes such as Superior, Adequate, and Tool shaped object, we could begin to decide whether new or old was the choice. Those tools produced by companies like LV, L-N, and almost all of the modern small boutique manufacturers fit into the Superior classification because of materials, improved design, and tighter process and tolerance control and generally they exceed the quality of old tools, but the cost is the rub. Adequate new tools are just that, adequate and usually require some tuning and perhaps some fussy setup. Tool shaped objects are just something to be avoided and most surviving examples of old tools will be a better buy.

My way of choosing over the last few years has been a very personal though informal value analysis. Is the new tool better in fit, form, and function, and if so is the premium cost justifiable on the basis of whether or not I can find an old tool that approaches the quality at a price good enough? I the particular tool I need (or want) even available as an old tool at a price equal to or preferably significantly less than the new tool? If in mediocre shape, is the old tool restorable without too much expense in time, money, or both? These are the type of value judgements that have to be made to make an informed choice. The difficulty comes when as a novice you don't have enough knowledge to make the informed choice. This pretty much means you have to take the plunge and buy both a new tool and an old tool and learn how to fettle and use both. Only from experience both good and bad will you develop the knowledge base necessary. The bottom line is that it is the school of hard knocks.

[Jim Koepke]

There needs to be a category between Superior and Adequate.

Many Stanley/Bailey, Sargent, Millers Falls and other planes are much better than adequate yet as much as they are loved and used, their owners would not be so foolish as to say they were superior in quality to some planes available today.

jtk

[Jim Belair]

There needs to be a category between Superior and Adequate.

Many Stanley/Bailey, Sargent, Millers Falls and other planes are much better than adequate yet as much as they are loved and used, their owners would not be so foolish as to say they were superior in quality to some planes available today.

jtk

I'd call these Decent.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would be interested in seeing a comparison of tool prices versus tradesman wages for older tools and modern tools.

My FIL served his cabinetmaking apprenticeship in England with Shappland and Petters more than 6 decades ago. He has frequently remarked on how many hours he had to work to purchase the required tools for his trade.

That's something my father often remarked about as well, and he served his apprenticeship in the thirties.

Does anyone have a historical perspective on this?

A modern tradesman will certainly earn enough for a LV plane in a day, was this true 100 years ago? Would a cabinetmaker earn enough in one day to purchase a high quality plane 100 years ago?

The same argument is often heard about machinery, when people compare an Oliver industrial jointer to a modern low end machine. Same issue, if you go out and purchase a Martin jointer, you'll obtain a better machine than an old jointer, however the price may cause you to reconsider your choices.

Regards, Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

Rod, I know Martin jointers are good quality.But your statement that they are better than old ones really got my attention! Just read their specs. Removes maximum of of 8mm in one pass, I could never get used to that. A lot of the better old machines can take off an inch in one pass . With cost of straight line saws ,the room they require,and the fact that some of us will not use one without a helper... A vintage jointer can do two jobs. Add to that the indexing wheel for knife changing and the big wheel table adjustment ,and I see no competion for GOOD old machines. And I can adjust a big wheel jointer faster and just as accurately as the motorized adjustment.

[Jim Belair]

An inch per pass? Wow, that's not a jointer, that a rotary axe. Amazing!

[Matt Ranum]

There needs to be a category between Superior and Adequate.

Many Stanley/Bailey, Sargent, Millers Falls and other planes are much better than adequate yet as much as they are loved and used, their owners would not be so foolish as to say they were superior in quality to some planes available today.

jtk

Well, I can say that my first ever plane was a Great Neck brand smoother I bought new in the early 90's just because I thought I should have one. Ruined several pieces of wood with it and finally stuffed it away as a paper weight. Next plane I touched was a type 9 Bailey. Took the time to learn how to use it, then went and found my paper weight and fettled it too. I can say without a doubt, all my old Bailey's are superior to the Great Neck paper weight smoother.