Japanese marking gauges and hammers

[Randy Karst]

I purchased the Double Mortice Gauge that David listed above (2nd link-$45.00), after spending some time fettling it (they come a little rough at that price point), I like it. I prefer it to my Glen Drake or David Hamilton for most operations (standard and mortising), in fact so much so, that I began looking for a more refined version like the afore mentioned Kinshiro that Stanley provided a link to above (but did not want to pay that kind of $$$). I found this one at Tools From Japan and after some emails with Stu decided to give it a try. It is still pricy but may well be the next best thing to a Kinshiro at a somewhat real world price http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=2036. Still waiting its arrival but have high expectations. These marking gauges have great registry and cut a nice clean, precise line very easily-has become my "go to marking gauge."

Randy

[Stanley Covington]

+100. I use the Kinshiro gauges (large one made by Kinshiro from Iida, small one I made from Kinshiro blades from Hiraide) for marking (single or double lines) as well as cutting. They're magic.

I agree with Matthew on the round cutters, definitely undesirable and difficult to control. A properly sharpened pin bladed marker is preferable to these, but neither of them comes close to the Kinshiro.

I get kind of sick when I think of the hundreds of dollars I spent accumulating and trying various types of gauges before trying the Kinshiro, even on some fairly good gauges like the oval bronze plated rosewood pin version. And to be honest, that rosewood gauge is a fine one, but just not nearly the quality of the Kinshiro.

Jack:

I like a man that knows quality!

For most applications, the Kinshiro is the best, but I do like the Titemark for laying out dovetails where a very thin cross-grain mark is useful. I especially like the fact that it can be adjusted/ locked/unlocked very precisely with just one hand.

I hope someone steps up to the plate and starts making a replacement for the Kinshiro. Seems like there could be a business opportunity there somewhere.

Stan

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm thinking of getting a few of these gauges. maybe 2 regular ones and one mortice ones. I have a single wheel gauge but don't bond with it so well. I think I'll like a cutting blade much better.

what do you think of these type of gauges? has anyone tried the ones from TFJ ?

Also, I'd really like (not need) a Durma style hammer for my Koyomaichi chisels... it feels kind of disrespectful (and no fun) hitting them with a nail\claw hammer. what size do
you recomend, maybe 375gram?

Thanks,
Matthew

The inexpensive marking gauges will work. I've used them for a long time.

A 375g hammer is a good size for chopping furniture-sized mortises (1/4" or so). I have one of those and use it all the time. I used a 16 oz. (about 450g) claw hammer when chopping out mortises for my workbench. Those were 1" in width.

The more mortises I've made, the more I've come to the idea that chopping mortises is not a brute force operation, and so the weight of the hammer becomes less important than making sure you're providing a space for the chips to go. I would use a larger hammer to chop wider mortises, but I don't see myself needing to make a 1" wide mortise for a very long time.

I also have one of the Kinshiro gauges. It's really really really nice. But I wouldn't say that you have to get one of those.

[Jack Curtis]

Jack:

I like a man that knows quality!

For most applications, the Kinshiro is the best, but I do like the Titemark for laying out dovetails where a very thin cross-grain mark is useful. I especially like the fact that it can be adjusted/ locked/unlocked very precisely with just one hand.

I hope someone steps up to the plate and starts making a replacement for the Kinshiro. Seems like there could be a business opportunity there somewhere.

Yeah, I don't know whether Kinshiro made both the irons and dai (loosely translated as the wood jig holding the irons), but it sure would be nice if someone else were to pick up the work.

As to dovetails, I almost always freehand them (except for marking the base line), so any old, simple gauge will do.

[David Weaver]

As to dovetails, I almost always freehand them (except for marking the base line), so any old, simple gauge will do.

I think (hope) there are a lot of people in that camp, despite most of the literature differentiating between loose sloppy dovetails or excrutiating marking regimens. An accurate baseline, some sense of about what the slope should be on an eye basis, and some way to hide the dovetails seems a lot nicer. Geometrically heterogenous and sloppy don't have to go together (these dovetails have since disappeared from sight...always good policy).IMG_20130223_174451_469.jpg

[Jack Curtis]

The inexpensive marking gauges will work. I've used them for a long time.

A 375g hammer is a good size for chopping furniture-sized mortises (1/4" or so). I have one of those and use it all the time. I used a 16 oz. (about 450g) claw hammer when chopping out mortises for my workbench. Those were 1" in width.

The more mortises I've made, the more I've come to the idea that chopping mortises is not a brute force operation, and so the weight of the hammer becomes less important than making sure you're providing a space for the chips to go. I would use a larger hammer to chop wider mortises, but I don't see myself needing to make a 1" wide mortise for a very long time.

I also have one of the Kinshiro gauges. It's really really really nice. But I wouldn't say that you have to get one of those.

Nothing to argue with there, working wood is often more finesse than brute force; however, for tasks like dai making, a two pounder comes in very handy.

[Jack Curtis]

I think (hope) there are a lot of people in that camp, despite most of the literature differentiating between loose sloppy dovetails or excrutiating marking regimens. An accurate baseline, some sense of about what the slope should be on an eye basis, and some way to hide the dovetails seems a lot nicer. Geometrically heterogenous and sloppy don't have to go together (these dovetails have since disappeared from sight...always good policy).IMG_20130223_174451_469.jpg

Very nice looking shelf unit. As to heterogenous, it's unbelievably easy to bifurcate lines so the dovetails appear amazingly homogenous to another human eye.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

The Kinshiro is a superb marking gauge, easily my best and favourite gauge. I was very fortunate to be given one as a gift. I use it as both a single- (e.g. dovetails or tenon shoulders) and a double cutting gauge (for tenon cheeks). David suggested that Japanese gauges were difficult to set up, but all you need to do is know how!

The following comes from my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...ndMortice.html

First mark across the width with the mortice chisel, as shown below.





This is going to aid in setting up the mortice gauge. Simply place the ends of the knives (or points) in the ends of the cut. This sets up the cutting width.





Now slide the head of the gauge against the work piece to set its depth. This completes setting up the mortice gauge.





Mark the mortice lines.





And then mark the tenons with the same settings.




I liked the shape of the Kinshiro so much that I built two single cutter versions using 3/16" HSS drill bit shafts.





Details of the build are here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...ingGauges.html

I am going to built two "proper" Kinshiro-type mortice gauges next. Stu at Tools From Japan sells a very cheap version, the Ryuma. I have ordered a couple for the blades.

Hope all this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Not difficult to set up technically, but fidgety when the gauge is of poor quality, one blade is lower than the other and they don't like to slide independently of each other without screwing around. All of those are fit and finish issues that the user can clean up somewhat (cleaning up the mating surfaces of the irons, honing/grinding the irons to equal height), and why I had guessed that a maker with taste (like kinshiro) would make sure those problems didn't exist in his gauge.

The fit of the irons to each other on the kinshiro looks very uniform and precise.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Reading this had been greatly informative and helpful, thank you all! I think I will order some of the cheap ones for tools fromTools from Japan, for the blades. I thought of this
after reading the first page but naturally Derek you have the good ideas down already I have a great idea as to how to get the blade to move independently and smoothly,
but I'll have to wait and see if it makes sense in actual application.


Really can't thank you guys enough.

About the Hammers, I believe the Japanese have taken the finesse of movement and method to a super refined level (in many things), that makes absolute sense. of course their is a right (read ideal) hammer for the right chisel for the right wood for the right (no ideal here ) person. westerners have different hammers too. I have 3 plane adjusting hammer that I use for different planes. but at the same time I think it is not necessary even for a pro, as you can do A LOT with a LITTLE. basically... I have no idea what to do. Durma? Gennou? wood is good?.... I'll just wait. I want to get a Durma just to show respect to my koyomaichis, they really deserve it. also I plan to make guitars, heavy mortising is not my thing (so far).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matthew

When using a steel hooped chisel, such as a Japanese chisel, my preference is a gennou. Some prefer a wooden mallet and others a rubber-headed hammer, but for me the steel of a gennou creates the most direct feedback and control.A decent gennou can be had very cheaply. I have three of different weights, and two of them cost around $25. The third is a little special, and was purchased as a head, for which I built the handle (see: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...oraGennou.html )



My preference was for a head weighing 375gm as this would suit both dovetail (Umeki Nomi) and bench (Chu-Usu-Nomi) chisels. There is also a lighter 225gm gennou for nails and a large 450gm gennou for heavy work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Derek that is beautiful! I like the warm Jarrah more than the white oak. the head is delicious !

Do find the Durma's wider face nicer than a gennou for hitting chisels?

Stu offers hammer head in bronze. stainless and regular steel. stainless dosen't apeal to me, but what do you think of bronze VS steel?

[Matthew N. Masail]

this one looks real nice. the bronze gives some warmth.
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...roducts_id=816