PM-V11 in 1/8": Would you get one?

[Matt Meiser]

This was holding me back from ordering a set. That and the backorder status. And the price of course.

I'd like a 1/8 or 3/16 for cleaning out small corners, oopses or corners of dados for 1/4" ply (which is less than 1/4 of course) etc.

[Jim Neeley]

Not Jim, but I have purchased 1 LN chisel with the paring handle, and there are several things worth disliking about them.
First, the A2 steel is not that good at edge holding for the amount of work necessary to maintain the edge. I will take ever so slightly less edge holding ability of carbon steel in favor of lightning quick resharping any day. The object of a tool is for it to be just that a "tool" something to help you accomplish your goal quickly and efficiently, not add more work to an already full schedule, or create another job.

Peter,

My question is not to pick on or focus on you as many have made comments about slowness in sharpening A2 steel, which I do not understand.


I use an 8" grinder with a 46 grin Norton 3x occasionally to re-establish my primary hollow bevel (~25-27*). This takes about a minute, perhaps two if I'm not careful enough to hold it perpendicular to the stone.

Then regularly I use a 1000x Shapton glasstone to make a secondary bevel a degree or two higher (~29*) and my 30,000 glasstone for a micro tertiary bevel a degree or two (~31*) higher yet. This takes 20-30 seconds, tops, from start to finish.

About every 20-30 sharpenings I re-establish the primary bevel.

With sharpening so fast, why would anyone choose a material with less edge retention?

I have a set of O1's I run at a very low angle (~17* primary, 20-22* tertiary) for paring soft material, like pine, but I have them only to prevent dubbing the tips at such a low angle. Others say these are faster to sharpen and maybe they are, but I don't notice the difference if it's decreasing my time to 15-25 seconds from A2's 20-30.

No hostile intent here, just quizzical. What am I missing here?

As for the PM-V11's, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about my LN's; I'm just curious to try out other the promise of the new steel. Unlike some here that make their living from woodworking where efficiency is everything, mine is a hobby and I do woodworking because I like doing it on my journey of life and I want to try out the PM-V11 as part of that journey.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Yes. You are the only one. The rest of us are enjoying the great furniture the pm7s are building for us while we watch. Of course, the drawer DTs have unsightly quarter inch pins. You learn to live with it.


More seriously, the only time I rememberer "needing" a 1/8th chisel was when chopping a spine slot for a backsaw handle.

Tools, yes. Both planes and saws.

I'd imagine someone making small drawers or boxes might have use for them, but I wouldn't know, I don't make small drawers or boxes.

You could make a very serviceable chisel with any piece of 1/8" stock, filing bevels on it by hand and just inserting it into a handle and hardening it in the shop. It would just have to be short, but where does one really need long narrow and thin (no such chisels exist in quantity, anyway, they'd be weak and bend or break. They're either tall and narrow if they're long or thin and narrow and short).

[David Weaver]

No hostile intent here, just quizzical. What am I missing here?

Vintage chisels. O1 is sort of like a substandard version of the plainest of steels. If you could find chisels that were made of the stuff that files and razors were made of about 1900, that would be ideal. It would actually be very similar to good quality white steel japanese chisels. Vintage razors made in NY (and I'm sure elsewhere in the US) are as good of steel as anything I have seen anywhere. They are super high carbon, super pure and have decent flexbility at high hardness and they take a super super fine edge. They would make superb chisels at hardness just off of where the razors and files are.

I'm one of the three (so far) who just really has no interest at all in pm v11 chisels...I have used enough vintage stuff that I just don't. Not vintage stanley stuff from the 1930s, but vintage vintage, along with the modern japanese white steel stuff, which feels an awful lot like vintage cranked up a notch in hardness. I would only be interested in abrasion resistant steel for chisels if I was using them to plane.

[Jim Palmer]

I intended the 3/16th as a joke. I can't remember the last time I thought of a chisel by its nominal measurement when actually working with one. I would tend to lay out joinery that fits the chisels I have. I don't have a 1/8" chisel and can't imagine why I would need one (barring me discovering one in a drawer somewhere). If I did need one I would probably go into my kitchen and grind a little flat on the end of an ice pick before I ordered one for $70.

Precisely and the same would be the case if I lacked a chisel size or needed a fish tailed chisel sized for a specific purpose. There's no shame in grabbing an inexpensive - old or new - plain carbon steel chisel and converting it via a touch of judicious grinding for a specific role.

Yes, I know tool adaptations take a little time, but basic tool fettling needn't be beyond the scope of existing skills and the time taken with modifications tends to be far less than the time spent shopping, making one's mind up and awaiting delivery.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Don't forget .... one of the features of the PM-V11 steel is not just the promise of a longer lasting edge (and it does deliver here), but also a finer edge. The nature of PM steel is that the grain is finer and probably similar in this respect to the vintage steel you love. Perhaps this aspect should be reviewed by someone with a long history of vintage HC steel use (and who can ignore the different designs, per se).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

Agree with you on the maintenance. I don't care much for socket chisels though.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Admittedly my needs are for special uses, but I use a 3/16 chisel regularly, in fact more than a 1/4" or 3/8". One of my friends who does a lot of string inlay uses a 1/8" chisel on almost every project and uses a 1/16" chisel even more. It all comes down to what types of work you do.

[Roger Myers]

For my string inlay I actually use a 1/32"chisel from Blue Spruce, which I love. It replaced one I had ground from a vintage beater. I also have a set of Blue Spruce dovetail chisels which are terrific. For most of my paring I use a vintage set of Greenlee that I have had for over 30 years. I do have a set of PMv11 on order which will be used for chopping. Add to this a couple of dozen vintage chisels (Buck and similar) which I use for a varietymof tasks. Imtried a friends set of the Veritas, liked them a lot and now just waiting for the backorder to be filled.
With my tools split between school and my main shop, this doesn't seem like too many chisels at all.
Roger

[peter gagliardi]

In response to Jim Neeley, like I said, the Barr chisels hold an edge- although a much, much keener edge ever so slightly
shorter than the LN, but sharpening is miserable. Sharpening and grinding are two different operations in my book. I expect to be able to sharpen a chisel in about 15-20 seconds period. Any more and you've just created another job. Now, factor in that A2 has to be sharpened at a much steeper angle to hold the edge it has, which, like it or not creates more physical work for the same amount of chopping - less penetration per mallet blow. The huge advantage here is a good carbon steel edge is already at optimal grind for chopping, and is very very good for paring . Less effort to sharpen + less effort for achieved results = job done= more money in my pocket= home run in my book!!

[David Weaver]

Hi David

Don't forget .... one of the features of the PM-V11 steel is not just the promise of a longer lasting edge (and it does deliver here), but also a finer edge. The nature of PM steel is that the grain is finer and probably similar in this respect to the vintage steel you love. Perhaps this aspect should be reviewed by someone with a long history of vintage HC steel use (and who can ignore the different designs, per se).

Regards from Perth

Derek

The edge isn't as fine as the better vintage steel nor is it as fine as white steel (which for practical purposes is not much different than the finest vintage steel).

It isn't just particle size (it's not submicron particles) but the ability of an abrasive to uniformly abrade an edge sub particle size and the condition of the edge straight off the stones (whether or not it holds a wire edge or if all of that sharpened off flotsam leaves the edge easily and on its own, even without the finest stones).

I've only got one V11 blade, it's on my shooter, which makes it difficult to tell how good it actually is (shooting hardwood is hard on any iron), but off the stones, it doesn't match the vintage razors I have, nor the white steel chisels I have. It's not as keen and it's more picky about the sharpening medium.

None of the vintage (truly vintage, not 80 years old) or white steel chisels I have leave me wanting anything, they can be maintained in normal work (DTs, HBDTs...I just can't think of much else where you do a lot of chopping) just with a finish stone, and they have an aesthetic that I just find very lacking on the LV chisels.

While it's not true for everyone, I can usually find nice examples of the vintage chisels (forged bolsters, etc) for about $10 here.

Where I see the promise might be for the V11 (for me) would be in a smoother iron. So far, I haven't found a more favorable smoother iron than the tsunesaburo blue steel iron, in that it leaves a very nice surface like a fresh iron through all points of wear, but is very easy to sharpen on any modern stone.